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Honestly, I like the idea that everyone is just waiting to betray the boltons/reclaim the North for the Starks with individual plots way better than the idea of one grand conspiracy. A single grand conspiracy means some dude(s) had a plan and the rest just sorta agreed with that plan. Several seperate conspiracies shows just how respected the Starks are, that all these seperate groups would be longing to reinstate them, even with the risk of being found out.
@Aquila I doubt that. Even though Jon was a bastard the only one of his “siblings” that didn’t care for him was Sansa. And even then she’s been warming up to him ever since shit went south for her. IE since the first book.
I do think it’s more poetic that everyone just individually hate the Bolton so much that they’d all have their own plans to stab them. Cause let’s be honest, the only things keeping the Boltons in power are the absence of any male Stark. I honestly believe everyone would try and kill them the moment any of Robb’s siblings appear.
@Skitzo Radio MMA the show makes stuff up also small Jon in the show says he is glad his dad died which is not somthing any umber would say.
It is a single, GRAND conspiracy though. They all wanted revenge, they form into a secret group and make a plan. That is one conspiracy consisting of all the houses. Then the second conspiracy involves dead cat and getting Robb's will up north, but it isn't a GRAND conspiracy, so there is only one grand conspiracy.So, the only reason you think there isn't a 'single grand conspiracy' is because you have a third grade understanding of stuff. In no way does a single conspiracy imply that "they just sorta agreed with that plan...." A conspiracy is made up of many actors, and they obviously all contribute something to the plan in some shape or form. Then obviously one plan takes shape above the others, with maybe a plan or more, and then this becomes their agreed upon course of action.And this comment gets top up-doots for some reason.... for being brain dead
I also belive its more realistic. Becuse imagine you dont trust alot of people so everyone starts plotting becuse no one knows who to trust and dont know what others are doing
"Sansa is still in the Vale, Arya is still in Bravos and Bran is still a tree"lmao the delivery on that line always makes me laugh
Bran is still a tree. Him being king in the show was ridiculous.
I love Wyman Manderly. The show did the Northern plotlines a serious injustice.
@JadenStar10 like say maybe if the queen marries the second son of one of her lords
@Papamidnite No. Literally no, read the World of Ice and Fire. The Casterlys did rule the Rock but it was the Lann the Clever, a First Men, who took control over it (legends differ on how he actually did it). It would take centuries even millenia before the Andal blood intermixed with the Kings of the Rock, when Ser Joffrey Lydden married the Lannister princess. After the death of the king with no male heirs, Joffrey took the House name and became the first Andal King of the Westernlands, howerver, since his wife was a pure breed First Men Lannister, the line survived through their descendants
@Fildarius V the Lannisters are Andals. They won the throne from the Firstmen house, the Castleys.
The Frey pies legendary
Could be worse. Did you forget how dirty they did Dorne?
Stannis would happily put a Stark in the North as long as that Stark recognizes him as liege.
Of course Dany has a claim, Westeros exists as a unified entity because of her ancestors and their dragons
@hello how are you she is in line for the throneHow high depends though if you count the baratheons, or if aegon is a blackfyre or not or if Jon is legitimate or not, nevertheless Dany is 100% known has a targaryen, so she definitely has a claim
@ALPHA GAMER I kinda thought that if you weren't directly in line for the throne then you don't have a claim to the throne..
@hello how are you no it doesn't, just means she push down further in sucession
@ALPHA GAMER it does invalidate her claim..
I have a different theory, it's not a conspiracy. See while being honorable makes you open to betrayal, it also inspires true loyalty beyond the grave, betraying a honest and honorable man tends to infuriate to the point of suicidal rage to those who held him in such regard. Ned's honor might have been the death of him, but it will be the savior of his house.
It is 100% a conspiracy, and the only reason the conspiracy works is because of the reasons you listed. Do you not know what a f*cking conspiracy is? They even have a slogan to identify themselves to those in the know... "the North Remembers...."FFS, people are so dumb now that they literally describe a conspiracy and why it would work and in the same breath say, "it's not a conspiracy...."
I mean just look at the mountain clan, they’re enthusiastic about marching through a multiple month snow storm and eager to attack winterfell at the thought of saving “the Neds girl” 3 thousand men for Stannis merely at the idea that one of neds kids could be in danger
I mean you(Ned) can still be honest and yet see the bullshit in other people. Just cuz you tell the truth dont mean everyone does. It's naive to believe different.
The show-"The North kinda forgot that they remember."
@sudanema mimikiki But did he confirm who would do it? And did it directly come from him or was it someone “quoting him”?
@Galvion Authirion DuGont Without GRR Martin's books as a guide, D&D, are just that, Dumb & Dumber.
The north kind of forgot about loyalty to the starks
The show- “fuck the plot we have been working on for years.The fans- “it’s okay guys, we still have the books”Death- “it would be a shame if Martin died” Everyone 😐 “please don’t”
For this Ill just use a Robert borathean quote. Give me something for the pain and let me die
You forgot to mention the fact that in the Vale, Sansa has been communicating with Littlefinger about taking back Winterfell from the Boltons as well. So there is a slight plot involving her as well.
@Eilowyn the north, the vale a d god damn riverlands. She owns the freackin country now
@OcarinaSapph1r3 -24 Robb's Will named Jon Snow King in the North; Sansa cannot usurp that, you f00l
I’m going to love it when the fanboys find out Sansa learned the game the hard way and plays like a boss. Queen in the North, bitches.
@Arham Mahra sansa isn't motivated by greed, but others who might seek to use her are.
@Matthew Parker Cersei is still alive, and Sansa isn't motivated by greed that she will clash with that monster just to get a disputed Castle.
Another example of bad writing from the show... all this "the north remembers" but hardly anyone joined Jon in taking back winterfell
@Filip Ferenčak the viewers who skipped the season were the smartest.
There's plenty of bad writing, but this isn't an example of it. History is full of examples of things like this: saying an oath to answer your liege lord when called upon is easy. Actually doing so: especially when defeat looks likely- well, that's not easy. Some would say it's not even the right thing to do. When offered a choice between fulfilling one's oath and bringing one's family name and legacy to destruction, most lords will choose the latter. Add to this the fact that Jon's claim to actually represent House Stark is quite tenuous (being, in most people's eyes, a bastard) and what actually happened is perfectly sensible.
but it was so epic bro, subverted expectations for the win :D
@Filip Ferenčak bronn
This aged well
I've watched the show and have only just started reading the books, but wow. The story is so much more advanced than in the show, it's unbelievable.
Words give you much more detail and time to explain.
The books are always better because they do have a lot of more information
I like the idea of many small conspiracies. Imagine them all showing up at winterfell to bring down the Boltons and each of them is like "wtf are you doing here?" And there is all this confusion about the whole situation and it's a little like this scene in Life of Brian where these 2 groups meet eachother on their way to kidnap the wife of Biggus Dickus.God, I love the North.
He has a wife, you know. Know what she's called? Incontinentia. Incontinentia Buttocks.
This is beautiful 😅🤣😂
You wouldn't see this sort of loyalty in the Westerlands.
What I hate what the show did was that Roose kept warning Ramsay about his actions and that if he acquired a reputation as a mad dog, he'll be treated as mad dog.. Suggesting the northmen will turn on Ramsay on some point or at least they might be plotting against him. However nothing came of this.. Ramsay instead defeated Stannis and then got the support of Umbers..
@Duckboiii Yes literally Brienne acts like she’s all about honor and duty but she pledges loyalty to damn Renly that had no claim to the throne other than “I’m a nicer guy than Stannis” wtf. I hated Breinne after that
I had read that the show originally had planned on having some of the northerners(House Umber) turn on Ramsay Bolton but weren’t able to film it because D&D ordered the Battle of the Bastards to be filmed in chronological order and because of the insane, rushed schedule, they had to skip these scenes. They did have the scene with Jon Snow and Sansa Stark where it’s mentioned that the Bolton men fight for them out of fear and that, if they sense things turning against them, they’ll switch sides. They apparently just skipped over this storyline.
@Duckboiii hehe, you said 'doodie'. *giggles*
And Brienne going on about how Renly was the rightful king when he wasn’t At least his final word was ‘duty’
Don't get me started Stannis is my favorite character and when I saw that I lost my shit
Maege and the Glover "We need your help to make Jon Snow King in the North."Howland "Yeah...more like King of Seven Kingdoms actually."
Bold of you to assume Maege and Glover wants to make Jon King when he is literally a bastard in everyone eyes and already vow in the Nights watch. Holland Reed 100% knows Bran is alive because his kids are with him, Wyman Manderly knows Rickon is alive and sends Davos to go get him, and you got some Northerners believing Arya Stark is the real one. Why would they choose a bastard over a true-born. Even if Robb wrote Jon in his will, you still got each three Stark kids that can put there claim. Sansa is out of the picture, because she got disinherit by Robb after her marriage Tyrion and is accuse of Joffrey murder. Plus some Northern Lords and Lady are figuring out that Theon most likely didn’t kill Bran and Rickon, because swords in the crypts are missing.
I doubt that Jon is Targaryen in the books. it's cool and all, but it would be best if he was an Stark bastard.I bet his mother in the books is Ashara Dayne.
Also remember Rhaegar was obsessed with the dragon has three heads prophesy so I doubt he would disown his children with Elia.
@Jazeene Sibley Actually, annulment is NOT the same thing as divorce. It means the marriage was never official in the first place. So now you could argue that all of Rhaegar's children, besides Jon, are technically bastards lol.
ibxx j1011 Very bold words for such a flimsy line of argumentation. Just because there was no other polygamous Targaryen since Maegor the Cruel, doesn't mean the option is completely off the table. You said it yourself, polygamy wasn't common in the Valyrian Freehold. Yet you question why no other Targaryen was polygamous in all these years. Lemme think... Maybe because it's not common and they just didn't feel like it? You saying they didn't do it "because of repercussions" doesn't make it true (unless you can provide some actual evidence).Also, like others have already pointed out, Elia being barren is potentially a great reason for annulment and I'm not sure that having 2 very young children (one of whom is a girl) would necessarily cut it. The Faith might very well value a safe amount of offspring to ensure the stability of the realm more than upholding some puritan "no divorce" policy that has been broken in the past on several occasions anyway. And heck, for all we know everyone can just get their marriage annulled if their spouse is barren, regardless of whether they already have an heir or not. Jon may or may not be a bastard in the book.
"Everyone loved Ned!" *shows image of him with his head seperated from his body*
Atleast he got a quick death unlike Joffery
@Karl Müller I though it was decapitatED
*Insert Lady Dustin feeding his bones to her dogs*
Everyone in the North did
Thats some real emphasis on the -ed in "loved"
The show ruined the northerners character: loyalty.
@Scapegoat Animations i'd argue that the first 4 seasons are great, season 5 and 6 had good moments but they weren't great imo
@ALPHA GAMER Maybe he did.
@G filmer maybe martin exaggerated
@ALPHA GAMER 11 would’ve been enough.Season 1: A Game of ThronesSeason 2: A Clash of KingsSeason 3: A Storm of Swords pt 1Season 4: A Storm of Swords pt 2Season 5: A Feast For CrowsSeason 6: A Dance of Dragons pt 1Season 7: A Dance of Dragons pt 2Season 8: The Winds of Winter pt 1Season 9: The Winds of Winter pt 2Season 10: A Dream of Spring pt 1Season 11: A Dream of Spring pt 2
@G filmer Martin said it had material for 13
Remember when the North Remembers in the show amounted like one old lady who was nice to Sansa that was immediately killed by Ramsay?
Yeah. That was so stupid.
The northern plot in the show was fucking ridiculous. The Umbers after several years of raising Rickon just offer him up to ramsay for 0 reason. And Jon didn't save the north, neither did sansas "political maneuvering". Little finger saved it and then he forgot why he did it. And the whole "the north remembers" meant nothing. Only like 50 of them helped jon. Hell the fucking glovers abandoned him before the long night. It should of been an army of Northmen rallying to save Jon in the battle of the bastards. That would of been epic and made far more sense. But instead we get littlefinger ex machina. And wyman Manderleys became just a throwaway character with like 1 line. What a fucking disaster. Fuck D&D
@Göran Persson this isn't true. There have been rules for war in most historical regions for most of history. They are either set by custom or religion or both.
@Göran Persson The northmen laws were probably far stricter and more just than anything geneva conventions can ever offer or bother implementing. Especially under Stark rule.I know it's fiction. But GRRM made it a point to showcase how madly honorable the North was. Ned Stark never forgave Tywin for the murder of the Targ children. Even though the North had nothing to do with it, it disgusted him.
The north didn't forget, the dumbass showrunners/writers forgot. Still pisses me off so much.
@couldntgetagoodusername no such thing as war criminals when there is no international law for war such as the geneva conventions
@couldntgetagoodusername a lot medieval armies commited atrocities they even commited them in the Riverlands Northmen included. The part that didn't make sense was them completaly ignoring Jon's orders and following Grey Worm over him so they could plunder. Hell one of them even tried to kill Jon for no reason.
I loved the character of ned stark...a man so loyal that people were ready to die to save his daughters and sons... The people loved and honoured him...there always must be a stark in winterfell....
I just love how well researched this channel is.Liked, subscribed, loved.
Your videos on GoT are by far the best researched and presented that I've ever seen on X-vid. Even the graphics are wonderful, and make the connections between characters and houses, political affiliations, secret societies, clans, and faiths or sects easy to comprehend. I have just plowed through almost a dozen of them in preparation for the upcoming season and have been reminded of so much history, so many minor characters, and a huge amount of speculative political intrigues and betrayals, that I feel as though I have been studying for an exam that I'm now very well prepared for. Thank you so much for your hard work and your passion for GRM's masterful tale. Please keep the information coming!!!! ;-)
They are all conspiring of their own accord to make sure that there is always a Stark in Winterfell. They say "there must always a be a Stark in Winterfell" so often it must be linked to some kind of prophecy about the wall or something.
I hope if that happens it will have something to do with the crypts
What I take away from the books is this; despite the wolf pack being scattered, the Starks are the most successful family in Westeros. With one or two exceptions, loyalty to the Starks among their vassals is bone deep, not the fear that has cowed the Westerlands, the intrigues and marriages the Tyrells have had to engage in to keep HIghgarden , but loyalty to the point that the Manderly, the Flints, Glovers etc. are willing to put their lives on the line for a family which has lost everything.
@PenitentDeadMan308 T that was Machiavelli, and the follow up was a warning that the prince should also take pains not to be hated. The Boltons are very much hated.
@JadenStar10 Mace Tyrell best Tyrell.
@JadenStar10 The Valyrian lord's could blockade King's Landing though, seeing as their island homes give them good fleets, especially the Velaryons.
Roose can't trust even House Ryswell, even if Alt says they might be loyal to him through marriage. Remember, Domeric Bolton was the son of Lord Ryswell's daughter, both Domeric and his mother are dead, along with numerous Ryswell men, either through battle, Roose's scheming, or the Red Wedding. And Barbarey, Domeric's aunt, has all but confirmed that Ramsay poisoned him, pretty sure Roose says he's suspicious of Ramsay as well, so Ryswell and all of his boys have no reason to support a man whose bastard son murdered someone that was of Ryswell blood, and wasn't punished for it.
@Latarsha Hall "Do I want them to love me or be afraid of me? Both. I want them to be afraid of how much they love me."
I swear if the show followed the books then it really would have been the best show on television
Absolutely, but it would have taken forever and not all actors/producers/writers can commit for that many years. They would have had to swap actors or the writers would have grown bored and ended it in a rush to move on to something else, as is the case.
@fee foo bro if he was never distracted by making the tv show, he would have had more time to work on the books. Not only that, but I'm convinced that the bad response people had to some of the endings in the show has him written into a corner trying to find a way to end the books in a way that won't make everyone mad. The show got so huge that it's put a ton of pressure on him. Just my opinion but it's not crazy lol
@MissSeaShell bruh no it isn't what are you talking about
The show is the reason we don't have the books by now. Fuck the show. Worst timeline ever. You can't change my mind 😒
@Kunga Sagar agreed, the first 4 season were godlike.
I can’t believe how much better the actual source material is compared to the show. The show is like a child’s painting of what actually happened.
I cant even imagine how much time must go into making one of these videos.
@Alt Shift X Mood
@The Piper Report The Fantastic Beasts movies are turning into a dumbledore origin story. We might see fawkes and other familiar characters appear in the series.
@Alt Shift X We can tell, thank you for your service.
Yeah. I've always wanted to create a universe like this. Harry Potter, Star Wars, GoT are all series' that could/do have so much back story involved with them. Like I wish JK Rowling would do a Hogwarts founders story, or a younger Dumbledore story like how he acquired Fawkes; a Voldemort story (though that might be too dark for JK)I have written a few short stories (not published) but those are like only 20k words. GoT is roughly 300-400k words per book. But it would be something cool to do someday. Create a universe that people dedicate X-vid channels to discuss and that could have dozens of indirect stories related to the main plot.Maybe I should start thinking of one.. Hmm.. Where to start?
When The Levee Breaks to be honest he's doing it at lightning speed considering he's basically created an alternate universe with an insane amount of history.
The "Battle of the bastards" will be less cinematic but MUCH MORE FUN in the books, by the look of this.
@Johnny Joestar Do you have an actual real life examples?Stalin and his ideology perished. So did Hitler and his band.
@MrMysteryMan Ktk cruelty DOES create long lasting dynasties. That's how it is in real life, the strongest rule. GOT just isn't as realistic as much as we hoped it would be
@Miguel Latorre Ramsey is not even married to Sanna in the book it is fake Arya aka Jeyne Pool she was on the first episode of the show laughing with Sanna over Joffery.
@Gustavo Henrique Dos Santos Tywin also died on the shitter, murdered by his own son.The starks created a dynasty that lasted a 1000 years, inspired by love and loyalty and fearsome warrior spirit.Tywin's "strategy" involved murdering people at a wedding. And while it may have won him the war in the short term, his sick behaviour inspired no love. Soon his house will turn to ruin and people won't even spit on the lannister name.Tywin and Roose are both short sighted. So short sighted, they think cruelty will establish long lasting dynasties. They never do.
did you really just say that a book will be less cinematic than a TV spectacle? You might have just said that the color red will be more red than the color blue. Thanks, Mr. Obvious
“Bran is still a tree”Never have I heard a more accurate way of describing Bran and Bloodraven😂
I'd like to see how Roose and Ramsay react when their disgruntled vassals turn on them in the midst of battle and encircle the outnumbered Bolton loyalists
Image the look on R&R's faces when they realize just how many people are against them.
I want this whole conspiracy thing to be real in the books sooo bad. Please George. It's so goddamn satisfying even to IMAGINE it happening.
Did you do one about Frey Pies? Wyman Manderly was really keen on serving 3 huge "pork" pies and serves them with glee while asking the singer to sing of the Rat Cook.Coming to the realisation that those pies were probably made up of the 3 missing Freys was one of the most satisfying in the entire series of books.
I feel like there's a lot of smaller, more independent conspiracies that all the factions are planning. So its actually a really good plot. If one faction gets found out, the other factions can still move on and keep their plans alive. So, it would be a really good plot point. But, I only worry that Stannis would never agree to it as he thinks that he deserves to be king of all 7 kingdoms. So, there is that.There is also the question of Rickon or Jon who's the real king. Robb made Jon a stark, but Rickon is Ned Stark's true son. So there is that as well.
If I remember my books right, and i admit it's been a little since I read them, doesnt Lady Dustin absolutely HATE the Starks? Wasnt her husband with Ned at the tower of joy and got killed and so she blames Ned for that and even tells Theon this in the crypts? Or am I thinking of another Lady?
I think Lady Dustin is purposely lying to Theon (Reek) as she believes he is Ramsays creature, plus Theon betrayed the Starks. In the book she reveals that her and Brandon had sex, and seems to admit to loving him at one point. She felt slighted when Brandon’s father overlooked her for Catelyn Tully. She does make it seem like she hates the Starks for this reason, but I believe she still loves Brandon and feels loyalty towards him. But who knows, we won’t know till next book is released.
The Lady doth protest too much
But who does she hates more? The already dead man who is responsible for the death of her husband and not bringing his bones back? His family who so far had done nothing wrong to her (though, her hatred for Ned could've been extended to the rest of the Starks, there is no telling with a person seething with anger) or the bastard who is highly suspected of killing his brother, has done numerous detestable things to fellow Northerners and even High-born, mentally sick by all accounts and is the heir to all of North and his father who quite possibly have known about Ramsay's killing of Domeric and not only allowed it but rewarded him by making him his heir? Also by all accounts it appears that Lady Dustin really really loves Domeric
She is lying. She hates Ramsay for killing his nephew Domeric, Roose's eldest son and heir, whom Lady Dustin loves and adores. She also hates Roose, for letting Ramsay kill Domeric and doing nothing.Above all, she hates the Starks for taking away Brandon and his lord husband.
She might be lying to avoid suspicion.
It's been nearly 3 years and I still consoder this to be one of Shift's best work
I'm very excited to see how Jon Snow behaves after his resurrection in the books. Eddard, Robb, and Jon all died ultimately because they were too trusting and naïve. I'd like to see how Jon changes and learns from these mistakes.
One of my favorite theories, cannot wait to see how it plays out. I noticed you didnt mention Larence Snow, Lord Hornwood's bastard. Stannis could legitimize Larence to secure loyalty of Hornwood men since Lord Hornwood and his only son die in AGOT and Lady Hornwood is murdered by Ramsey.
It's amazing how well thought out and complex this is. How did the show have such good source material and still manage to fuck it up this bad? It's like they didn't even try past season 4
I think you forgot a major reason why the Northern lords might respect Stannis, he defended the wall.
Fantastic video as always. It's something I hadn't previously considered, but Stoneheart crowning Jon - perhaps even being key to his resurrection - makes a lot of sense to me, and would bring Catelyn's arc to a satisfying close.
Great video. Just one small disagreement - I really don't think the Ryswells are loyal to the Boltons. Yes, they were connected by marriage through Bethany Ryswell, but she's dead. Not only is Bethany dead, but her only child, Domeric (who by all accounts seemed to be a decent guy) was Bolton's legit heir and is widely suspected to have been murdered by Ramsey. Instead of seeking justice for Domeric, Roose appears to have rewarded Ramsay for killing him. There is no way that wouldn't piss off the Ryswells. I see no reason why they would be loyal and a great motive for them to want to take him out.
@maTmu yeah, but not likely the Ryswells are in the mood for excuses.
Poor Domeric. He just wanted a brother.
Bolton didn't reward him he knew it was him but needed an heir an stability if he was not likely to have more sons
Chances are the Ryswells will go behind the Bolton's backs and give Stannis their loyalty.
As for the Ryswells, Domeric Bolton, legitimate son of Roose and a Ryswell lady, is believed to have been killed by Ramsay. Even if they are loyal to Roose, they wouldn't be so to Ramsay.
I hope one of these plots fall through in the books. The show (as of Season 8) is doing a disservice to GRRM's work.
The book conspiracy is so much more interesting than the shows way of doing it, they still couldve done a huge battle of the bastards style battle but had more content from the political mess of the north
The speech Wyman Manderly gives to Davos in the books is some badass shit fr. It's very rare books feel as cinematic when dealing with dialogue like this.
"And Stannis Baratheon is still alive."Me- FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS!
The wall was put up to protect white walkers from Stannis the mannis
Stannis the mannis
All hail the one true king stannis baratheon!!
@Márton Pintér Stannis is a very complicated character. He is bitter but he’s also been slighted his entire life. He suffers from middle child syndrome to some degree. Robert was the legendary warrior. Renly was the charismatic and gregarious younger brother. It’s hard to explain why I love him so much. He’s the only man in the entire world who didn’t want to be king. He doesn’t fight for the crown out of personal ambition or for glory. It is simply his right that has been denied to him. He’s fair, he’s firm, he’s a genius commander and there’s such great pain within him. Renly’s peach is one example but even his worship of the Red God is a decision made out of the pain of watching his parents die. He swore he could never worship the Seven for so cruelly taking his parents away from him as he watched. He does his duty simply because it’s the right thing to do and not for praise. Though he’s bitter that he’s not appreciated by others for his loyalty. He’s so profoundly human that my knee bent on its own.
Stannis is alive and yes, Shireen will burn but what role Stannis himself plays in that is questionable. Shireen is at the wall with the Red Woman and Davos is in Skagos to retrieve Rickon. What I do know is that a lot of what Jon does in seasons 6 and 7 and maybe 8 of the show will be done by Stannis in the books.
It would be a fitting ending to Catelyn knowing that Ned was always faithful to her, a nice conclusion of a thorn in her life, and seeing the Freys and Boltons killed by supporting the claims of her nephew-in-law as King in the North. an ending of Catelyn and Jon's relationship, a nice one. an eased mind of her marriage to honorable Ned, and peace of mind because the traitors of her son are defeated. I HOPE this happens, I wanna see a somewhat good ending for Catelyn.
Damn, all this is 100 times more interesting than anything that happens in the last 2 seasons of the show :( Praying that Martin actually manages to finish the books and all this cool stuff gets properly paid off.
He will not finish them. We can just hope he allows someone to finish them after his death
Parallels with the Lannister’s, the starks have gained so much respect that there’s other houses trying to revive house Stark, Tywin was a power house, but once he died, the Tyrell’s and others try to undermine the Lannister’s, because he was only feared
It's my understanding that when Robb wrote his will to make Jon heir, he legitimised him at the same time, making him a Stark was the only way he'd be accepted by the North as King. Thus, Bran is the second in line.
Well worth the wait mate. Excellent explainer!
Now i realize that the books are miles better then the series.
346.000+ views after 1 day. =)
Synystr7 get the heel outta here with that. You suck everybody knows you stuck. quoting Kane like he's Shakespeare. FUCK ING UNDERTAKER!!!!!
"He who controls the past commands the future, He who commands the future, conquers the past." - Kane
A couple of good seasons of intrigue could have been mined just from these speculations alone. But the showrunners were more interested in ending it quickly than continuing without more material from Martin.It's obvious that, in the books, the "Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar" reveal will be by Harland Reed, being he is one of the few surviving witness to his birth. A living witness is a bit better of a convincing narrative than the kid who saw it in a dream. Moreover, Im convinced that "Little Griff" is not "Aegon" the son of Rhaegar and Ellia Martell but Jon Snow's older Fraternal twin. My argument for this lay in the book where "Little Griff" reminds Tyrion of Jon Snow when he first meets him. And in the show, having omitted the Big and Little Griff plot entirely, still suspiciously used his name "Aegon" for Jon's birthname. I imagine what Arthur Dayne was really stalling for when he confronts Ned Stark at the Tower of Dawn, was Jon Connington's escape with the newly born infant whom he later claims is the child "Aegon" the son of Rhaegar and Ellia. When Ned Stark and Harland Reed find Lyanna she is literally in the midst of giving birth to Aegon's twin, Jon Snow, maybe an hour or less after her first son. The stress and trauma of having given birth to two children is what probably killed Lyanna. Only her nursemaids, midwife, and Lyanna herself knows she's had twins. Jon Connington doesn't know. Ned and Harland didn't know. Lyanna only has time to name Jon and have Ned swear to protect him before she expires. Both Jon and his twin are "the song of ice and fire"What would be a little dramatic is if she wasn't naming Jon, Jon. But trying to tell Ned about the other twin being taken by Jon Connington. She only managed to utter "Jon..." before she dies, and Ned mistakes this for the infant's name ... but I'm just making shit up at this point.
Personally, I think Stannis will win out in the end, he possess between five and six thousand soldiers. And these aren't shoddy soldiers either like the Freys or the Gold Cloaks. Some where between one and two thousand of them are Southerners. Admittedly they aren't used to the cold but they are veterans of half a dozen battles and any green has long been taken out of Stannis' army since book 2. They are well armed and many of them are mounted and a Mounted Knight can be worth a dozen foot soldiers. Along with their experience they are loyal to Stannis after many a defeat and questionable decision they serve the Lord of light along with that they are going to be well paid and supplied now that the Iron Bank is helping Stannis. The other three to four thousand are northerners fighting for something more compelling than Gold or God; Home. These are men who remember Eddard and Robb's just rule and won't accept the Traitorous Boltons especially since they believe Ramsay is marrying Arya. What is facing Stannis may seem formidable but it isn't. On paper Bolton commands ten thousand soldiers but this number is just that, on paper. Some hundreds are manderlys which have shown the reader that they completely intend to Betray Bolton. Some other hundreds are Umbers who while fierce aren't likely to want to fight other Umber men that are in Stannis' army along with the cruelty of the Boltons. Around a thousand are Karstark men who, in Spite of the death of rickard Karstak, will not tolerate non-stark rule and have no marital or financial connection to the boltons and will not enjoy fighting their kin who serve in Stannis' Army. There are also some two thousand Freys who do have a reason to fight with the Boltons but they are very far from home and are as far as we know not veterans or mounted or well armed and at the first sight of battle not going their way they will likely flee back to winterfell. Only four to five thousand are under the Boltons directly and while having fought a decent number of battles they aren't as experienced or as mounted as Stannis' host. Along with this the Boltons rule with fear and while this may work some of the time it makes their allies discontent and weak against determined foes. Along with this Stannis has help on the way. The manderlys who have some fiver to ten thousand men-at-arms and knights will join Stannis once Davos fetches Rickon, or before that. Stannis is also gathering mercenaries in the East, we've heard something like twenty thousand which would give Stannis a massive force. So if it comes to Battle the Stannermen would be hard pressed but the higher morale, unity and Quality of Stannis' men should win out over Bolton's numbers. And if it should come to Siege all Stannis needs do is wait for his Manderly friends and/or sellswords to arrive and Bolton would be screwed. Although I have a bad feeling about this with Jon receiving (possibly false) word from Ramsey that Stannis was defeated and the fact that Stannis died (stupidly) in the show.Edit: I think much of Stannis' horses have died but nonetheless I think he has the advantage with Bolton sending out the freys and manderlys to attack him in the crofter's village where I suspect stanjs will play a trick with the iced over lake
I hope Stannis could come through all of that myriad of conspiracies. It would be so unfair that after rescuing Northlands from ironborns and Boltons, Stannis received treachery as payment. I do trust in the sense of honor and justice of North lieges. They will stay loyal to Stannis once he restores house Stark as wardens of the North.
Taking all of this (and other sub-plotlines) into account, the show was really doomed to fail. They left out so many plotlines and by only focussing on the bigger pictures they completely changed the dynamic of the story.
The Battle of the Bastards episode was incredible to watch from a cinematic point of view; truly the best on screen battle since lotr - BUT it's obviously going to happen very differently in the books, and it'll be equally great to read about I bet. It really makes more sense that most northmen would be dying to destroy the Boltons, given that the events of the Red Wedding are common knowledge. I can't wait. It'd be so nice if TWOW was released sometime in the next 3 years 🙄
Barbrey Dustin talks all that shit about Ned Stark, but you have to remember who she's talking to: she expects Theon to snitch to Ramsay, so she tells him something she thinks Ramsay will believe while giving herself cover to retrieve Ned's bones and confirm Wex's story. Something's going on in Winterfell...
I think Barbrey legitimately hates the Starks for her being spurned. Doesn't mean she's a safe ally for House Bolton though, she definitely hates Ramsay.
I wish my boy Stannis the Mannis was still alive in the show. I know they need to wrap things up, but he was just such a good character.
@Jon Simpson he burned his only daughter and heir alive 😐
Exactly, he was fantastic in every episode. It was such a shame he got killed off ☹️
What’s really interesting about the political developments in the north, is that the loyalty of the northmen may undermine the wide-held public view that many of the Stark’s are political fools. Sure Ned and Rob screw up big time when it comes to playing the game of thrones, but the fact that the Stark’s honor, loyalty, and respect for their vassals is buying them support even from the apparent grave is a testament to there at least being some political benefits to being loved by one’s subordinates. Through their honor, the Starks have achieved something that few other houses have achieved in the story, undying loyalty.
See everyone called Ned a fool for being an honorable man. They said Robb was a full for killing a karstark out of honor and marrying a woman because he had sex with her. They may not be the best when it comes to deceit but they are the best with honor. The northern men will always be passionately loyal to the Stark's. No other great house has such loyalty due to their deceitfulness. THE NORTH REMEMBERS!!!!!!!
@Roberto Pedroza when did GRRM say that, i dont know that particular interview?
@Hypatia Kovalevskaya Sklodowska even GRRM says that Ned's mistake was not wanting Cersei's children death and telling her. Even Varys tells him "what madness led you to tell Cersei?".
Honestly instead of killing the karstarks he should have just made them take the black
@PhoenixofPrometheus He was trying to save their lives. The children are not guilty for the sins if their mother. And he knows how Robert is. He was already talking about killing Daenerys for so long.. Again, it was Sansa's betrayal that made Cersei put her plan in motion. If it wasn't for that, she would have no cards when Robert finds out. He'd have killed them all
@Hypatia Kovalevskaya Sklodowska I agree he wouldn’t know that his daughter would betray him. But there is a scene where Ned reveals to Cersei that he knows that Tommen and Joffrey are not Robert’s children. Afterwards he gives her a chance to flee Kong’s Landing where Cersei has time to plan the arrest and trial of Ned. He could have easily avoided this problem by not telling Cersei.
This is incredibly well put. I can't even imagine the effort it took to compile and organize this together so well. Kudos, my man.
These videos are so well laid out and realistic. It's so easy to get excited and jump to the conclusion of one big grand conspiracy but here, they are realistic.
I feel like Jon will give up the chance to be King in the North unless it is actually better for the realm. Davos will probably find Rickon by the time of the battle in the ice and so I feel like Jon would pass the wardenship to Rickon. I highly doubt any northmen are going to call Jon, King in the North if he doesn’t want it and outright refuses it.Also, is Jon actually hinted to be Rhaegar’s bastard in the books, or is that just the show? I’ve read the books but I don’t remember anything about that.
The Red Wedding really was the ultimate gamble, turning out to be a "cut off your nose to spite your face" moment. All of the North hating the Boltons and Freys, surely losing the respect of other houses for breaking guest right rules/traditions. You don't just forget that the North remembers
I was like WTF happened to your channel. Why no more videos? And then I watched this and was like "Oh, I see. you've decided to torture yourself trying to make the North make sense."
I come from the show to see the books for the first time and wow, things are way more interesting scheme -wise here, whereas the show has some amazing fight scenes and dialogue confrontations
Amazing. This was exactly what I needed to see after those terribly subpar season 7 "leaks" that I don't want to believe are real. Amazingly well done analysis. This is the level of depth and detail I require of a story, and it does not disappoint.
I'd love for this to happen, with all plots eventually ending up coming together and ending up with Bran or Rickon as Warden in the North and Jon King of the Iron Throne. That's how the books should take it, but here we are 2 years after this video was released and The Winds of Winter still isn't released yet lol but hopefully by next year it will be
@MissSeaShell probably not even next year but I really hope, I'm tired of waiting lol
Just one more year! 😭😭😭😭😭
@Aditya Hr. Sahoo accha chutiya
Dreaming mate. Next year probably.
Honestly, something tells me none of this is going to end up true just because Martin seems like the type to change the future of the plot entirely just because someone predicted the outcome.
Absolutely fantastic in-depth analysis! Thank you so much for keeping such careful track of all the plot points and laying them out so plainly!
For those of us that haven't read the books yet, these videos really highlight how bad the producers hacked the story for the show. Its certainly not possible for a show to keep with the books 100% but many of the changes downright terrible. The show producers are fools for attempting to tell the story better than GRRM.
In the same sense that the others come down to punish westeros when they overstep their boundaries and expand/intrude towards the north (as humans do), the northern houses may have a similar method in how they dispose of any powers that take over Winterfell as Warden of the North. Very interesting video
I've been watching these videos since just before the start of Season 6. Since then, I've also started doing academic research in a different field from the one I was trained in, and I've learned a lot more about how to structure an argument and evaluate evidence from these videos than I have from the academic literature.
I love how you summed it up in the end. The whole video I’m thinking there’s no way this isn’t true but unlikely its all one conspiracy more like 8 because the loyalty is real amongst the north
Flipping love Wyman Manderly. One of the best side charterers
I mildly doubt that Stoneheart would meet with Reed. Apart from Cat meeting with a character so important yet not appearing directly yet - her resurrection is seemingly "apart from" the work of the old gods. Thoros is a red priest, and for Cat, a follower of the seven, after resurrection, to work so closely with him seems out there.
When Catelyn finds out Ned was faithful from Howland Reed, she will be so overcome with love for Ned that her heart will melt.She crowns Jon and passes her life to someone else so she can be with Ned
I imagine, in the books, once the big battle of Stannis vs Boltons, everyone comes out with their different Starks to be king in the North."You have a Stark, You have a Stark, are there any other Starks we should know about?!?"Cuts to Arya training in Braavos
People forgetting Arya has a legitimate calm to the North because “Arya” married Ramsay, even though it was Jeyne Poole pretending to be Arya. By marriage, name, and law she is Lady of Winterfell. Plus Jeyne might be heading to Braavos with Justin Massey after word of Jon death, they must take “Arya” Jeyne somewhere safe because the Bolton’s will look for her. Arya will most likely meet Jeyne found out what happen and it will push her to go back to Westeros. Plus Lady stoneheart has Robb crown and the brotherhood are looking for her around the riverlands, meaning that Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn knows that Arya is alive. She would want Arya to have Robb crown, not Jon(of course) or Sansa because she married a Lannister making her inherit. She probably still thinks Bran and Rickon are dead, which only leaves to Arya.
@God Emperor of Mankind 3.0 Doran’s probably siding with The Blackfyres. Daenerys now has most of her supporters either joining FAegon and/or Jon.
@Hugh Mann 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Tony Stark: Well this is awkward
@Braz Guy Darrys. maybe Doran
Coming back to this after reading the books, I did enjoy them so much more than the show; I tried rewatching Season 1 but couldn’t make it past episode 3 or 4; I got bored with quickly.A point though: Walder Frey refers to himself and Jaime as kingslayers, but isn’t it Roose Bolton who should be loathed by the realm ?
to be honest i wager that if any of these groups of conspirators ever did started making gains wit there plans and messing up the boltons, the other groups would join in with them and assist in the bolton bashing. i mean they all want peace and a stark in the north so no matter who's plan works first the other would likely side with them as well.
Amazing video. Thank you for putting all of this together. You're a legend.
There's also Petyr Baelish who plans on wedding Sansa to the next heir to the Vale (after her cousin Robert, who is expected to die because of his seizures), around which times he plans to either have Cersei deposed (or else hope that someone else has done it for him by then) so that he can openly reveal Sansa's true identity, thus installing her as the trueborn heir to Winterfell, which somehow helps him get closer to the Iron Throne (having the Lady of Winterfell and the Lord of The Vale on his side would certainly be a good start on that).
im new to game of thrones and trying to understand it deeper. but your videos are so deep to the point where i feel as if im learning the history of the universe.
If you're interested in more theory videos, I find In Deep Geek really great too. He goes a bit slower, so it's a little more digestible if you're new to all this theory and background stuff. Plus the GoT Lore videos are really great for filling in a lot of history and mythology that the show can't really get into (plus if you've read the books it can help remind you of things you may have forgot).
I just rewatched the series about 3 times so I could really understand what the hell was going on lol
Read the books completely "blank"...after try make your conclusions yourself. If you have the time read them a second time without minding theories and let yourself be amazed by all the hints and foreshading and after that you can dive into the complex theories.for instance: i was stunned when I read Brans dream in book one a second time after my first run:SPOILER: Brand dreams about Jon and sees him on Castle Black forgetting what warmth feels like...that phrase felt really similar to Jons last moment (I read it in german, so the wording could be coincidence...but since it's GRRM I doubt that)
ITT: People trying to compare totally different media and not getting that "adaptions" are different to the original source for a reason and have their own creative existence.Also don't like reading long books? or struggle as you read so slowly (like i do). Get the audiobooks (loads of apps for that these days).
The show has passed the books. And there are significant plot holes and changes. I highly recommend reading the books if you'd like to more fully understand the complex GOT universe.Personally, I think I've read the entire series about 5x now.
Great theory! I am not sure if the was brought up in the comments, but I would think that perhaps Lady Stoneheart is heading to the neck for a different reason. I believe that she has the intention to give Robb’s crown to Jon, but not to honor the will. Maybes he is led there due to some insight given to her by The Lord of Light via Beria Dondarrion, since they are connected......
Beautiful analysis. Though I don't see why all those unhappy with the Bolton-Frey-Lannister treachery would necessarily have a problem with King Stannis. He's saved the wall and liberated Deepwood Motte - more than their current rulers have bothered to do. And the truth is that, other than his religion, Stannis has a Northern disposition; cold, just, severe, plain.And as we've seen, Stannis almost begs Jon Snow to become Lord of Winterfell and warden of the north under him, as his father was under Robert. Although initially resisting, after the pink letter Jon seems to have made up his mind to fight for Winterfell.For those aware of the coming winter, the undead beyond the wall and rumour of coming invasion from Essos - not to mention the enormous bloodshed that has already gone on - I can't picture there being much appetite for an independent north. The north will need help from the south - lots. King Stannis -who essentially is fighting for what Ned Stark fought for and wants what is good for the North - would be very acceptable
This is what kind of makes it hard for me to forgive when it comes to the show. I get that they can't do everything in the books, but I can't express how bothered I was by the whole "The North Remembers" being used while doors were being slammed in Sansa and Jon's faces, while no one except for some old woman "tried" to help Sansa. They made the phrase meaningless. Wyman Manderly has some of the best stuff in the books and the loyalty shown to the Starks is amazing, but Manderly is getting lectured by a 10 year old instead. So yeah...I get that the show has to take shortcuts, but I just really hated how they shredded the GNC.
Not sure if I ever told you this but this is an absolutely beautiful video. You always put forward some seriously well plotted content but you really hit this one on the head. I used to watch tv to go to sleep. Around December 2017 I switched to audiobooks. Roy Dotrice is my lullaby master. That’s not dirty, get your mind outta the gutter. So if you multiply 6 hours by the days that past since Dec 2017 and divide by all the hours of the five books, the dunk and eggs, and the big book - that’s how many cycles my sub conscious have absorbed. You fuckin’ nailed this video like a one stroke shot on a spike into soft yellow pine. I’m still available for an appearance on the live geeky podcast I am hoping you begin in the near future. I have a unique voice that will play well against your sultry tones. I can be the cole slaw to your golden fried seafood. I’m training every day waiting to be called upon. *** * Have Fun, Be Well, Stay Hydrated.
This just makes me glad that the show decided to simplify the story because the money spent on making the dragons would go toward paying for all these actors, and the dragons would be a cleverly crafted shadow behind curtains or flying through the sky. Their roars would be twenty metal garbage cans being thrown off a cliff.
A (far fetched) thought about Stannis: It's stressed time and again that Stannis is this honorable unbending man who actually doesn't want to be king, but fights for it, because he believes he is the rightful heir. And because Melisandre kind of convinced him that he is Azor Ahai. If it was to turn out that Jon is both - the rightful heir to the iron throne AND Azor Ahai ... is there a chance that Stannis would support him? Because honour and legitimacy and stuff. It doesn't sound like anything a man would do that far into a war, but then ... it's Stannis. And he's also in the north, wandering about with an army. And accepting a proven claim on the throne over his own, would be exactly what Renly denied to do.
This.... actually seems pretty plausible. Why don't you have more upvotes?
WOW. I know I'm late to the party, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate your diligence and work. I'm currently on a binge of listening to theories, my mind being blown, and making new tin foil hats. Thank you for these vids!
I'm here to kill Boltons and rescue Arya Stark, and I'm all out of Arya Stark.
Lol the North is about to go full Red Wedding in the Boltons asses which is very ironic.
I 2nd that
@Lalvon Zelpharr then lannisters
@Normaali Ihminen its actually a reference in duke to the movie they live. The original quote is "i am here to chew bubblegum and kick ass, and i am all out of bubblegum" i think the order might have gotten switched about.
@Normaali Ihminen Its from Duke Nukem but originally its from a much better piece of media, the John Carpenter film They Live.
I very much doubt that Jon snow is the legit son of rhaegar in the books. Rhaegar annulling his marriage with elia to marry lyanna is big fan service by the D&D. don't forget Lyanna was bethroded to Robert Baratheon. at best he's Jon Sand in the books and that doesn't make him true King in the iron throne, just an Targaryen bastard instead of Stark one.
You know nothing, ahtinen.
Massive Copium my friend. You do know Martin only allowed the show to happen because D&D guessed 'R+L = J'.
The bastard name isn't about where you're from, it's about where you're raised. Jon Snow will always be Jon Snow regardless of his parentage. And it's pretty obvious that this MASSIVE secret is going to be important lol
Martin basically confirmed that theory, D&D got the job because they guessed it correctly
Honestly love the fact that while the south backstabs to get each of their own families ahead and its really every house for themselves, for the north they are truly loyal to the starks. So much so that they want revenge for the family even though they were almost entierly wipped out
I still like to believe they might adapt Catelyn's Stoneheart into the show. It would be a welcome surprise for both TV show fans and book fans alike.
This show just what a genius GRRM is. Such deep and intricate plotting and the characters all behave realistically. All of this intertwined with a fantasy plot of dragons vs the Others. Absolute masterclass. The tv show is such a massive disgrace to his work.
What I’m concerned of is that if the Boltons are defeated, what if the different conspirators start infighting, over those who support Rickon as Warden of the North, recognising Stannis as King, and those who want Jon to be King in the North over Stannis? And what about Jeyne Poole? There has to be at least 1 person in Winterfell who know what Arya looks like and will say that this isn’t her. How will the northerners react to their brothers and sisters dying to rescue some politically useless nobody? Probably something like going berserk and saying “Let’s kill the pretender”.
No, they're northerners. They're not as bad as the other kingdoms' men. And even if both Rickon and Jon show up somehow, I'm pretty sure it'll be handled fairly smoothly; Job would immediately step down for Rickon. Jon was only made heir to the north because Robb thought his trueborn brothers were dead and he didn't want the lannisters controlling the north through Sansa. So I'm pretty sure the north will fuse back together under a stark banner without any infighting.
Small point about the Blackfish:From his conversation with Jaime, it seems that he didn't like Jon either, just like Catelyn. I don't remember the exact words but he seemed to think that Jon was made commander due to Lannister influence, and stated that Cat didn't trust Jon just as she didn't trust TheonI doubt he would be open to crowning Jon as King in the North, will or not
When Catelyn plays the game of thrones people die
I want to know how Sansa's story will work, if she really marries the heir and March north to free Winterfell. And I also want to see Catelyn's reunion with remaining Starks ,hope I am not asking for too much.
Excellent video, excellent explanation as always! This is definitely the best GoT related channel, thank you very much for your effort!And after I watched this video many times (just for the pure joy of hearing about the Grand Northern Conspiracy in an excellent way), even though I very much enjoy the show and all the visualization that comes with it, I can't help myself wanting to shout: BOOKS vs. show people!Amazing video, amazing channel...
I feel the Northern Mountain Clans might simply view Jon's bastardy as an inconvenience but still preferable compared to the fact Jon is an adult who has seen battle and commanded men in action. Bran might be less useful to them. A young boy (though brilliant and perhaps best suited to rule of all of them) who is crippled is not what they need right now. Rickon though to Manderly is very valuable. As a young boy, he would need someone to rule for him... who better than Wyman. Wyman can have Roose's role, but seen as a hero doing it. Then he just marries his daughter (the one he promised he would find a great husband for) to Rickon and his grandson will sit Winterfell as Warden of the North... and if things go well... King in the North. And really, it would work well for Rickon. Eventually Wyman will die and Rickon (fully grown) will take his rightful due. Another view comes with Shireen. If you support Bran or Rickon as the next Stark Lord, pitching to Stannis marry his girl to either of them is playing for the whole stake. Once Stannis wins (if he can), she would be in line to rule. And eventually a Stark would sit the Iron Throne. In other times, a Bran Shireen reign would be full of win. Their intelligence and temperment would be the second coming of Jaherys the First and his queen.
@CharlesFreck she hid Mance Rayder with an illusion easily, even made the Lord of Bones look like him.
@Break Faith because we’ve seen her cast illusions before. She did the same thing with Mance Rayder.
@MR. K That would require Tormund to think he was Jon. We read that chapter from Jon's POV, and GRRM has never lied to us about what someone sees. So unless she made Tormund truly think he was Jon, it doesn't work, and there's no evidence that her magic is quite that strong, not without a blood sacrifice.
@MR. K 1. Evidence?2. He brought back beric alot of times and he was just fine until he brought back stoneheart who was dead too long beforehand to come back relatively normal
@Aegon II Jamie has to be the valonqar to end Cersei and close his own arc.
One thing to remember about House Ryswell: Rodrik Ryswell's oldest daughter was married to Roose Bolton and was Domeric Bolton's mother, which means that Ramsay Snow murdered his grandson. His second daughter is Barbrey Dustin. It's very likely that if she is on board with a plot against the Boltons, then so is he. Also, I'd venture a guess that those snow men in the yard are a nifty piece of foreshadowing. I think they aren't just snowmen but Snow men, as in Jon Snow's men.
I’ve read the books three times and I haven’t caught on to half the point you bring up In your videos. Your analysis of the books is just stunning. Well done sir, well done.
I hope books do justice to the phrase, "The North Remembers". In the show it had no meaning practically.