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Tyrion Targaryen: is Tyrion the Mad King's son?

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  • Published on Oct 25, 2014
  • In Game of Thrones / ASOIAF, is Tyrion Lannister secretly the son of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen? What would that mean for his relationship with Tywin?
    This video contains major spoilers for Books 1-3 / Seasons 1-4 and some minor spoilers/references for Books 4-5 and Dunk & Egg. Basically, if you've read Books 1-3 or seen Seasons 1-4, you can watch this video without having anything significant spoiled.
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    Twitter: altshiftx
    Created with Toon Boom Studio 8.1, a Wacom Intuos Pen Tablet, and a Blue Yeti microphone.
    Game of Thrones images and videos from HBO's Game of Thrones. Pretty sure this constitutes fair use.
    Westeros map based on "Westeros-with borders-30pcnt.png" by Arbor / Happy End awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/... .
    Thanks to María Mariño Costa for the Spanish captions.
    Errata:
    7:03 There are actually several strong examples of accurate prophecy in A Song of Ice and Fire, including those of the Ghost of High Heart and Patchface

Comments • 3 240

  • RiverLyricsAR
    RiverLyricsAR 5 years ago +2371

    so,Jaime killed Tyrion's father and Tyrion killed Jaime's! Fair enough

    • Marvelansh
      Marvelansh 24 minutes ago

      Tyrion : Lannisters aren't the only one who pay their debts.

    • rick ross
      rick ross 13 days ago

      @Michonne Walker you can be more intelligent in the future by being more introspective today.
      "who cares" about being more intelligent though? clearly not u KEKW

    • SniffSniffMmm
      SniffSniffMmm Month ago

      Tyrion did say "A lannister always pay its debts" to a whole another level

    • Michonne Walker
      Michonne Walker Month ago

      @rick ross Dude who cares? I don't care anymore

    • rick ross
      rick ross Month ago +1

      @Michonne Walker the books aren't over. you're commenting on a video that includes some of the strongest evidence presented

  • My Crown G
    My Crown G 6 years ago +2750

    I never thought about the fact that all 3 of their mothers died in child birth

    • Kshitij Bhambri
      Kshitij Bhambri Month ago

      @HeyThere He is a Faked one. Most of them call him Faegon

    • HeyThere
      HeyThere Month ago

      the three heads of the dragon would be aegon targaryen (son of elia martell), Daenerys Targaryen, and Jon snow.

    • mr. ma'at
      mr. ma'at Month ago

      @Kshitij Bhambri Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai are archetypes.

    • Kshitij Bhambri
      Kshitij Bhambri Month ago

      @mr. ma'at But Nissa Nissa was Azor Ahai's Wife

    • Danur Kresna Murti
      Danur Kresna Murti Year ago

      I think mother love is common theme is story trope

  • Jacob Power
    Jacob Power 3 years ago +803

    I think it's more likely that Jaime and Cersei are the Mad King's twins and Tyrion is the only true child of Tywin, how ironic would that be.

    • Sam's Mom
      Sam's Mom Month ago

      Perhaps all three are dragonseeds.

    • hubba bubba
      hubba bubba 2 months ago

      @Suranjan Ghosh plus Robert's granny was Targ

    • Juan Sanchez Villalobos Ramirez of Spain
    • Nicholas Nubin
      Nicholas Nubin 2 months ago +4

      @MegaKnight2012 Jaime the Kingslayer, Cersei, and Robert the Demon parallel Aemon the Dragon Knight, Naerys, and Aegon IV the Unworthy prior to the Blackfyre Rebellion. Except they are all are or descendants of Targaryen Bastards like Orys Baratheon. Joffrey also parallels, Aerion Brightflame the Mad Prince, who would have become the First Mad King! Daenerys is the Valonquar who will kill Cersei! The younger and more beautiful queen who will cast her down. Jaime the Golden Hand could become Daenerys own Ory Baratheon.

    • nopuedeserestoyflipando
      nopuedeserestoyflipando 2 months ago

      And maybe Darnerys is the balanqar that will kill Cersei

  • Carter F
    Carter F 4 years ago +139

    You put it so well. Tyrion's relationship with Tywin is beautifully tragic. To cheapen it by turning Tyrion into a secret Lannister would completely undermine his character and stretch any kind of believability. This theory is interesting but it's an example of the fans taking things a bit too far. Not everyone has to be a Targaryen or someone else in disguise. Not every great person in the world has to come from one incestuous family.

    • fatant520
      fatant520 19 days ago +1

      @Lanakin Skywalker 😂😂😂touché

    • Reignier Avon
      Reignier Avon 2 months ago +2

      @Lanakin Skywalker Got a genuine laugh out of that one. Well done.

    • Lanakin Skywalker
      Lanakin Skywalker 6 months ago +8

      *Zeus has entered the chat*

  • SkipperPlaysTW
    SkipperPlaysTW 6 years ago +653

    Interesting theory, but I believe Tyrion is FAR too much like Tywin.
    This dialogue between Jaime and his Aunt, Genna Lannister, best proves that Tyrion is infact the son of Tywin:
    "It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."
    "And you?" Jaime asked her.
    "It was not a game for girls. I was my father's precious princess... and Tywin's too, until I disappointed him. My brother never learned to like the taste of disappointment." She pushed herself to her feet. "I've said what I came to say, I shan't take any more of your time. Do what Tywin would have done."
    "Did you love him?" Jaime heard himself ask.
    His aunt looked at him strangely. "I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give me hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the West in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"
    Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
    "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most in truth."
    That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
    "Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
    -A Feast for Crows, Chapter 33, Jaime V
    The one flaw of Tywin was his inability to recognise Tyrion as his heir. As a result of his upbringing he looked for strength in his successor and he thought he saw that in Jaime, as a result of his arrogance and appearance. However, it was Tyrion who inherited the way Tywin thought, his knack for politics.
    Varys says this in Season 5 Episode 1: "You have your father's instinct for politics."
    And Genna of course says so above, she being one of the few people who "recognizes Tyrion's talent for political maneuvering."
    For me, Tyrion is too much lion to be a dragon.

    • case Co
      case Co Month ago

      @X 1NoTn X *moot

    • ThatCoolKidYouKnow
      ThatCoolKidYouKnow 2 months ago

      Well, Tyrion is still a Lanister. See how much Jon is like Ned.

    • Nicholas Nubin
      Nicholas Nubin 2 months ago

      Jaime the Kingslayer, Cersei, and Robert the Demon parallel Aemon the Dragon Knight, Naerys, and Aegon IV the Unworthy prior to the Blackfyre Rebellion. Except they are all are or descendants of Targaryen Bastards like Orys Baratheon. Joffrey also parallels, Aerion Brightflame the Mad Prince, who would have become the First Mad King! Daenerys is the Valonquar who will kill Cersei! The younger and more beautiful queen who will cast her down. Jaime the Golden Hand could become Daenerys own Ory Baratheon.

    • Jay Cee
      Jay Cee 11 months ago

      The lion is the dragon. The opposite of Yellow is Purple.

    • Virginie Adami
      Virginie Adami 2 years ago

      @B Wolfram This! Jaime's conversation with his aunt seems to be the only argument people find that could justify Tyrion being a Lannister like how? Does that mean that every adopted child actually resemble their biological parents through their intelligence and personality? Tyrion's mother is still a Lannister at the end of the day. And if we look back on Targaryen history, only a few were 'crazy' ones, so Tyrion doesn't have to be mad to be a Targaryen (nor Cersei for that matter), his appearance proves it enough already.

  • cas4pip
    cas4pip 2 years ago +777

    "Possible, yet quite unlikely" literally any theory out there lol

    • Degenerate
      Degenerate Year ago

      @swinetastic a faceless man.

    • swinetastic
      swinetastic Year ago

      @Degenerate Then Who died in place of Littlefinger ?

    • Brennan Neaton
      Brennan Neaton Year ago

      Usually agree, but I remember reading about Jon being a Targaryen YEARS ago, so some of these threads definitely lead somewhere

    • Thought Criminal
      Thought Criminal Year ago +3

      Some “theories” are more sound than others and are more likely/probable than their counterparts.

    • Kekero
      Kekero 2 years ago +3

      Or prestons “dragonbinder is a slave horn.” Theory

  • Edz Lozaar
    Edz Lozaar 6 years ago +964

    It'd be so disappointing if Tyrion turns out to be a Tragaryen, he's one of the most brilliant minds on the series and i'd rather see him riding a dragon out of pure guts and knowledge than doing so because of ''hey look i was a Targaryen all along lolz 420 blaze it''

    • ARandomGuy
      ARandomGuy Year ago +1

      ​@Mayank Bisht The Dragon horn requires a human sacrifice each time it's used and is currently in the possession of a Greyjoy about to become an eldritch abomination god. Good luck stealing it off him and what Valaria used thousands of years ago is unknown to everyone alive. There's no way to copy it and you'd have to be a mage in the first place which Tyrion isn't.

    • 20 Ton Chop
      20 Ton Chop Year ago +2

      I would think it funny if they established that dragons would let children climb on them and they only let Tyrion ride them is because they think he is a child....lol. I know it is stupid but still funny.

    • Mayank Bisht
      Mayank Bisht Year ago +1

      @runelord37 There are other ways to control a Dragon like a Magical Horn or Spells

    • Csilla
      Csilla 3 years ago +14

      @Ever Wanderer if memory serves me correctly, Drogon was the actually rebellious, Viserion and Rhaegal were kinda tame (we are still talking about beasts who can and would eat humans and also breathe fire). I think specifically Daenerys and her dragons bond were more like mother and children. And kids often go through a rebellious phase. Also, the old Targaryens had more control of their dragon, because they actually knew how to train them and they could pass down that knowledge. By the time Dany was born, nobody seen dragons for quite some time, so nobody had this knowledge to give her.

    • Ever Wanderer
      Ever Wanderer 3 years ago +22

      @runelord37 Furthermore, we should remember that, as they grow, dragons are rebellious toward Daenerys, which implies that this spell was weakened (which would make sense given how magic seems to work in this universe). But they have been becoming more obedient and the show even hints that she can steer them in flight, possibly hinting that the growth of magic (as it has been stated in the show) has been gradually strengthening the bond between the dragons and the last remaining Targaryens.
      Besides, Tyrion being a Targaryen doesn't undermine all of the cunning he has been showcasing through the whole show when interacting with other humans. Remember that cunning and knowledge only impress other humans, and not animals. You can be the biggest strategist in the world, and yet unable to break a horse or befriend a simple dog. On the other hand, I've seen really stupid people befrending all sorts of animals just out of scent, instinct, strength or something that has nothing to do with the book-knowledge and talents that Tyrion has.

  • avkingoking
    avkingoking 6 years ago +54

    One thing I would like about this theory is that it would make the friendship between Steffon Baratheon, Tywin, and Aerys even more tragic. Steffon's son killed Aerys's son, Tywin's son killed Aerys, Tywin's daughter killed Steffon's son and a lot of his grandchildren, and this would mean Aerys's son killed Tywin.

    • Unfinished CGI
      Unfinished CGI Month ago +2

      That's not very thematically relevant though. Tyrion being Tywin's biological son is crucial to the themes and subtext of the entire series. To remove that element undermines the most significant relationship of two of the best characters in the books and show.

  • Colin Davitt
    Colin Davitt 2 months ago +5

    Because GRRM says that he is a “gardener” with his writing and not an “architect”, I think early on the story he may have intended for Tyrion to be the Mad King’s bastard (hence the hair, the eyes, “killing” his mother at birth, etc.), but as he continued to write he may have ditched that storyline for something more poetic. By the time he developed the more poetic theme of Tyrion being Tywin “writ small”, it was too late to go back and change anything about his appearance, so now it is simply a coincidence. Plus, there are too many Targaryens/possible Targaryens/Targaryen bastards for it to have any element of surprise to readers. I like the idea of Tyrion being Tywin’s true born son more than any surprise down the line that “surprise! there’s actually ANOTHER Targaryen!”

  • Carlos Huerta
    Carlos Huerta 5 years ago +36

    Aerys II had deficit of having children during a long period of time. (between Raeghar and Viserys), that could link to the result of Tyrion genetics.
    As well, in the episode where the dragons where locked in Mareen, Tyrion was very close to them without getting harm, just like Jon Snow (Aegon).
    I totally support your theory.

  • The Blooded Gamers
    The Blooded Gamers 6 years ago +226

    Here's a thought...
    What if Tyrion is a Chimera?
    Originally fraternal twins, Lannister and Targaryen (due to the mad king and Tywin bedding his mother close enough together to conceive twice).
    He and his twin merged in the womb (not unheard of) and he is a child of both- A Lion and a Dragon.

    • HaleySlayinIt
      HaleySlayinIt 23 days ago

      Fascinating

    • Nicholas Nubin
      Nicholas Nubin 2 months ago

      Jamie and Cersei are the Mad King, Aerys Targaryen's bastard children. Jaime the Kingslayer, Cersei, and Robert the Demon parallel Aemon the Dragon Knight, Naerys, and Aegon IV the Unworthy prior to the Blackfyre Rebellion. Except they are all are or descendants of Targaryen Bastards like Orys Baratheon. Joffrey also parallels, Aerion Brightflame the Mad Prince, who would have become the First Mad King! Daenerys is the Valonquar who will kill Cersei! The younger and more beautiful queen who will cast her down. Jaime the Golden Hand could become Daenerys own Ory Baratheon.

    • MegaKnight2012
      MegaKnight2012 6 months ago

      This sounds like fun because it would mean Tyrion was a dwarf and a chimera, two terms often associated with fantasy but have real world terminology

    • Daniel Lockett
      Daniel Lockett 2 years ago +1

      Though it was in an off hand remark, wasn't this theory proposed by Preston jacobs

    • barbara berenyi esterhazy
      barbara berenyi esterhazy 2 years ago +6

      @gematria79 actually, Aerys had seen Joanna in 272AC, during the celebrations for his 10 years reign. She came to KL then to present her twins and the Mad King humiliated her talking about her breasts in front of everyone. Tywin wanted to resign after that, but the King refused. Joanna died in 273AC birthing Tyrion. This and the fact that Tywin says " I cannot prove that you are not mine" (= he has doubts), show that it is a possibility.

  • MissJoy16
    MissJoy16 6 years ago +6

    I guess we'll never know unless GRRM tells us specifically, but I could see Tywin believing (or choosing to believe) that Tyrion was the son of Aerys and not him, in order to make himself feel better and create distance between himself and Tyrion. And over time that can escalate quite dramatically.
    Interesting video--both sides make good points. Thanks!

  • 0mNam
    0mNam 7 years ago +1084

    Tywin : You are no son of mine!
    Tyrion: but I am your son I have always been your--
    Tywin: no I'm serious, I'm not your dad

    • WafflingMean44
      WafflingMean44 Month ago +1

      @Kshitij Bhambri That is one of the dumbest theories I have ever heard in my entire life. Are you high?

    • Kshitij Bhambri
      Kshitij Bhambri Month ago

      @MrCarlorr why nobody is getting it that CotF built TEE to take over Humans to destroy their own creation becoming enemy NK and White Walkers and then rule them.
      Only Three Dragons can stop them

    • Kshitij Bhambri
      Kshitij Bhambri Month ago

      @WafflingMean44 No, Its Important
      Tyrion-Jon are central to it.
      When Bran is dead and now the Three Eyed Raven rules i.e. indirectly Children of the Forest rules and they used Bran to use Humans to kill and finsih their Oldest Enemy Night King and White Walkers (Made by them only but became their enemies), now they can rule Humans. But TEE will become evil and only can be beaten by Azor Ahai and Three Dragons.
      Tyrion as Hand of the King will realise it, Cersei will be resurrected in Volantis by Red Priestess and Drogon's brothers too(dont know Viserion can come back or not) and Arya will come back from her voyage and finding a Continent far-off.
      Bran is dead or hidden. Meera Reed is also alive. Maybe she can be used to bring back him or maybe not. Brienne ,Bronn also will fight.
      But final battle will be Three Eyed Raven vs Three Dragons.

    • Michonne Walker
      Michonne Walker Month ago +2

      @Sam's Mom That comment is old, don't care anymore watching House of Dragon.

    • Sam's Mom
      Sam's Mom Month ago

      @Michonne Walker The books are not, though. The HBO series took off on a different tangent than GRRM wanted, thus the bad blood between GRRM and D&D.

  • Guru Prasanna
    Guru Prasanna 2 years ago +12

    I feel like George initially toyed with the idea of Tyrion eventually coming to ride a dragon. In Book 1, you can see loads of foreshadowing for Tyrion + dragons. I guess after AGOT he kind of felt it wouldn't fit with the overall themes and Tyrion's character arc, and ended up dropping the idea.

  • Deb B
    Deb B 6 years ago +188

    For someone who's not a Targaryan, he sure did have a way with calming the dragons, though.

    • Michonne Walker
      Michonne Walker 3 years ago +4

      The show he not a Targaryen

    • Will Mosse
      Will Mosse 3 years ago

      Bill Cipher - I am not familiar with the Potter material, but I believe it...

    • Bill Cipher
      Bill Cipher 3 years ago +1

      @Will Mosse
      And in Harry Potter. They cut out so much important stuff its not even funny anymore.

    • Will Mosse
      Will Mosse 4 years ago +35

      Yeah, but that was only in the show, and by Season 6 the show runners were getting pretty lax, including things for instant cool impact without thinking too much about the big picture. For some reason, tv and film makers seem to do this a lot. Sacrifice the long term big picture for instant gratification. Happens in the second and third Lord of the Rings movies quite a bit too.

  • skullsRS
    skullsRS 6 years ago +10

    He could be a targaryen, but Tywin loved Joanna and Tyrion killed Joanna when he was born, so for Tywin to hate Tyrion wouldnt be so unlikley. It is definitely an interesting story if he would be a targaryon... but IF he is it must be for some important reason. Wouldnt be well written if he just happen to be a targaryen. The prophecy says that azor ahai most have/be a dragon with three heads. But it could be that azor ahai just lead three dragons (which danny has) so if john and tyrion are a targaryon it might be that John, Tyrion and danny fly the three dragons.

  • Rik van Paddenburg
    Rik van Paddenburg Year ago +4

    His aunt Genna confirms that "Tyrion is his fathers son, I told him as much" to Jaime. She could be wrong, but she gives a good analysis of Jaimes character compared to his uncles and fathers.

  • Peregrination
    Peregrination 3 years ago +3

    Tywin's and Tyrion's dynamic is one of the most fascinating for me. It certainly cheapens it if Tyrion is Targaryen, despite how hilarious it would be if Tyrion is and he ends up being the only one alive at the end...but I don't think the world would accept him as king anyway. His story hasn't gone in a direction to get respect for what he is (dwarf), but how he can influence in the background or in a supportive position (respect for his mind).

  • Bexzilla
    Bexzilla 2 months ago +3

    The fact that tywin likely at least suspected that tyrion was aerys' bastard, but that he knew for sure that tyrion was also a lannister due to his mother, likely gave him a very confused outlook. He must preserve house lannister at all costs, and tyrion is a lannister as tywin points out often when doing anything "good" for tyrion, but he's also not his son. And tyrion is just like tywin, who raised him, so tyrion really is the culmination of everything tywin hates about himself and others.

  • reinrose82
    reinrose82 2 years ago +5

    On Joanna’s wedding night? You remember Tyrion’s the youngest, right? I think Tyrion was supposed to be the PROOF that Jamie and Cersei were not Aery’s bastards. He was supposed to look like his siblings. Tywin hates Tyrion for not disproving that rumor, and killing Joanna who had the truth. Tywin rejects Tyrion for all the truths he refuses to face.

    • ARandomGuy
      ARandomGuy Year ago

      Yeah but if such a man did it on the wedding night he'd probably do it again at a later date if he had an oppournity to do it.

  • Domenico Parigino
    Domenico Parigino 6 years ago +6

    I really love this channel. I'm a huge fan of both books and TV shows and I can tell this is the best channel on the subject. Not just because it's the most complete in content, but it gets to understand the way this masterpiece was intended, parting good theories from unlikely ones. And most of all, it manages to express the introspective aspects of the characters, that are what makes ASOIAF world unique. I thank you very much, you're great.

  • ErickRedbeard
    ErickRedbeard 6 years ago

    This theory really makes sense and it would be a great reason for him to later become one of the three heads. It's also perfectly fine for it to be wrong, I'd be OK with either one since it's a great story each way. I do agree that it cheapens Tyrion's relationship with Tywin though.

  • LucyLynette
    LucyLynette 6 years ago +3

    I always wonder about the dichotomy of the "Tyrion Targaryen" theory vs. the "Tywin writ small" belief. Do the two stances have to be mutually exclusive? If no one (including Tywin) in Westeros knows Tyrion is anything other than a full-blooded Lannister, what value in the contentious father-son relationship is lost if it's revealed after the father's death to not be the case? If Tywin never knew (or strongly suspected) he wasn't Tyrion's true father, his relationship with Tyrion stands as it is, and *nothing* is going to reverse the impact that relationship has had on how Tyrion has turned out as a person. Tyrion is a naturally intelligent man who learned both great and terrible things from the man he called "father." Whether that person was his biological sire or not doesn't change that, and doesn't change Tywin's meaning when he disowns him.

  • Rob
    Rob 7 months ago +3

    Just goes to show how truly amazing GRRM is, made two very compelling stories about Tyrion but chose the stronger one and wrote around it. Whilst hinting at the other story allowing for theories and cause the reader to think. Beautiful

  • romanphoenix999
    romanphoenix999 6 years ago +175

    I like that you give valid points for both side of the arguement.

  • mike postma
    mike postma 6 years ago

    Making you explain this theory actually made me like it more. I used to not like it very much, because of the over glorification of the already populair characters. But this conflict ultimately is a conflict of nature vs nurture. The traits Tyrion seems to have from his father are largely personality and psychological. This could com from his raising rather then genetics.
    I do not think the dragon theory puts a black spot on the beauty of this relationship, I think it enhances it rather.

  • Michael Newton
    Michael Newton 3 years ago +2

    3 things to remember
    1: Tywins sister said that Tyrion seemed to be the only true son of Tywin but Jamie and Cersei seemed different and more like Tywins brothers
    2: What are you saying that Tyrion was falsely accused he admitted to Jamie that he killed his wretched son when Jamie was helping him escape
    3: Tyrion remarks that his mother died in childbirth and that his father never got to ask if Tyrion was a true bastard because of his dwarfism

  • Alyssa Davidson
    Alyssa Davidson 5 years ago

    Actually, there is some evidence of Tyrion's dragon-dreams being prophetic. I was just reading the first book, after having watched the show, and I was stunned to learn that (unless i misread or misinterpreted) Tyrion used to dream of burning his father. Is that not a parallel tot he fact that he does, eventually, kill Tywin in what could arguably be called a fit of passion?

  • Carol Uribe
    Carol Uribe 6 years ago +1

    I have been thinking about this theory for a while, and I take issue with this.
    The whole point is that the mad king bedded Tywen's wife on their wedding before he did it.
    But, Tyrion is actually younger than the twins (Cersei and Jaimie). This is shown when the prince of Dorne is talking to him, telling him about Cersei pinching his privates and so on when he was a baby.
    So if you look at it logically, then it doesn't make sense for him to be Targaryan, but for the twins.
    Unless, that is, the king kept bedding her in secret, which, it does not say anywhere in the books as far as I am concerned. So, how can he be a Targaryan?

  • Lizzie
    Lizzie Year ago +11

    It also seems as if having his beloved wife impregnated by the mad king would’ve been a great embarrassment to Tywin and made him look weak, so that could be another reason why he raises Tyrion as a Lannister despite his obvious hatred of him.

  • 13brk
    13brk 6 years ago

    We never learn much about the contents of Tyrion's dreams but he often sees dragons. I'm wondering if he has dragon dreams like the Targaryens we have read in the Dunk & Egg series. I'm convinced that those prophetic dreams come with the blood and if Tyrion is having some of those then this theory could be true. I love how his aunt considers him Tywin's real son though, they sure are very similar but Tywin also has more in common with the Mad King than he has with Jaime.

  • Amira Ihsan
    Amira Ihsan 3 years ago +1

    My biggest thought through watching this, obviously with what is now hindsight, was that he was able to “speak to” the dragons. Yes they were weak, but they didn’t kill him. They kinda listened.
    Also, the mad king making his bastard son Tywin’s heir seems like the kind of hateful thing he would do-knowing how much it would hurt and pain Tywin.

  • Suncho
    Suncho 3 years ago +4

    what if cersei and jaime are the mad kings kids? would that explain their incestuous relationship? were the targarians drawn into incest or they were doing it because of (what they believed is) the practicality of keeping their blood pure

  • jessie!
    jessie! 7 years ago +260

    I feel like, had Tywin been Targaryen in blood, he wouldn't have been allowed to live. Tywin would have killed him or disowned him, because no way he lets a bastard dwarf grow up with his name when he is so focused on that--his name. However, I do feel as though perhaps Jaime and Cersei COULD be Aerys'. He definitely did something to her on her wedding night, and that would have been around the time she conceived the twins. The twins show a tendency for incest, something really only the Targs did, and Cersei seems a bit crazy, though that could just be the fact that she's a hotheaded woman not used to hearing the word no.
    It would certainly fit Tywin's story better. These two children, though not his and he knew it, were perfect for bettering his house. They have golden Lannister hair and stunning looks. Marrying Cersei to Rhaegar was the original plan, and it was considered seriously until Elia was chosen. Cersei was (and is) a stunning woman. And Jaime is (or was) the best swordsman in all of Westeros. For Tywin, it truly was a blessing. He could overlook their real father, use the children and be happy with his wife. Then he fathers a child of his own and kills the only woman he's ever loved. However, HIS child is disfigured. HIS child does not have stunning Lannister-gold hair or incomparable handsomeness. So Tywin grows bitter and begins to despise his imperfect child, hating Aerys for fathering better children than him. Hating that he couldn't have a beautiful baby too. Hating that it was his son and not Aerys' that killed his wife. Grief-filled, he decides it must be the child's fault and torments him, filling his mind with madness and thoughts of "Tyrion is Aerys' son not the twins" and "Tyrion killed her".

    • Nicholas Nubin
      Nicholas Nubin 2 months ago

      Tywin is infertile, ironic for a man obsessive with family legacy. Tyrion, Jamie and Cersei are the Mad King, Aerys Targaryen's bastard children. Jaime the Kingslayer, Cersei, and Robert the Demon parallel Aemon the Dragon Knight, Naerys, and Aegon IV the Unworthy prior to the Blackfyre Rebellion. Except they are all are or descendants of Targaryen Bastards like Orys Baratheon. Joffrey also parallels, Aerion Brightflame the Mad Prince, who would have become the First Mad King! Daenerys is the Valonquar who will kill Cersei! The younger and more beautiful queen who will cast her down. Jaime the Golden Hand could become Daenerys own Ory Baratheon.

    • Jerry Melendez
      Jerry Melendez 7 years ago

      @Ayla Cheshir

    • Andromeda Kai
      Andromeda Kai 7 years ago +2

      Now that would make for a shocking plot twist! I'd love it if it were true)

    • Small Pseudonym
      Small Pseudonym 7 years ago

      @Mr33500 Oh I understand your point. And I'm not even saying that Tywin was hurt more than Joanna by those comments. I guess what I'm getting at is that Joanna is collateral damage in that case. It's Tywin he was aiming for.
      The rape is another matter, of course.

    • Mr33500
      Mr33500 7 years ago

      @Small Pseudonym His intent may have been to only insult Tywin but asking if the twins had ruined her breasts is insulting and that he wished he could have had the first night also insults her.

  • ghanphol
    ghanphol 2 years ago +1

    If Tyrion is the son of Aerys, he could be the third head of the dragon. In the books, that is.
    If Jon is Azor Ahai, and Daenerys the Prince that was Promised, and those are two of the heads Rhaegar spoke of, then if Tyrion is Aerys son, he could be the third.
    Tho that's only based on bloodline.

  • Michael Holmgaard
    Michael Holmgaard 5 years ago

    I think Jaime is Aerys' son. I mean, it makes sense since Aerys definitely could've passed his madness down to Jaime. Also, it would make Jaime (and already awesome character) even more interesting! It would mean he actually killed his own father and, potentially, could end up on the Iron Throne! I think it would be too obvious and forced, if Tyrion, Jon or Dany got it ;)

  • girl with kaleidoscope eyes

    This was a really good and well put together video and kudos on that! I like how you acknowledge that the theory is flawed and doesn't precisely fit in with the tone George has established so far and I can agree with that for sure, but even so I think this is a very interesting possibility and it would just be really neat if it actually turned out this way

  • SFC
    SFC 6 years ago

    After watching the last 4 episodes of season 6 i honestly hope that Tyrion is NOT a Targaryen, it would cheapen his story. The reason this storyline works better for Jon is because it would highlight the depth of Ned's loyalty to his family. It would make us adore him more and admire him to a greater extent like we do to Tyrion when his relationship with his siblings and father is revealed. It's a character-revealing tactic George RR Martin has used countless times before. Also because Jon is the epitome of Ice and Fire. Maybe Tyrion could be his and Dany's weapon?A force for good? Lightbringer?

  • Abhinav Agrawal
    Abhinav Agrawal 4 years ago +1

    this is indeed just a theory. but an important proponent is the way in which tyrion comes too close to the dragons in mareen while unchaining them. It was too close for a normal person to be. And then there is the support of Varys all alnong, who might secretly know that he’s a targyarean. Tyrion also asks Danny regarding her inheritance in case something happens to her, after she rides the dragons for the forsaken time to burn the Tayrel supplies with Dorthraki.
    The cunning nature and brute politics and strategic nature of tyrion can be because of her mother or mainly because of the experience and time he has spent with tywin. And then off course lust is a strong tygarian characterstic

  • iChillypepper
    iChillypepper 5 years ago

    I always thought Cersei and Jaime fit more as being the kids of the Mad King and Tyrion being the only true son of Tywin. GRRM likes having plot twists and shock the audience - imagine Jamie killing his real father to save the father who raised him. It would also explain attraction between Jaime and Cersei. We know from the case of Jon Snow that having a Targaryen parent doesn't mean you automatically inherit Targaryen physical traits

  • ChairmanKiryu
    ChairmanKiryu 3 years ago +1

    Definitely agree that it being true cheapens and simplifies Tyrion and Tywin's dynamic.

  • King Stoneheart
    King Stoneheart 2 years ago

    It’s interesting to see everyone shoot down the theory of Tyrion being a Targaryen on the basis that prophecies don’t need to happen whilst at the same time reading into and creating so many ridiculous theories based on other prophecies. I suppose one thing from a storytellers point of view would be that introducing both Jon and Tyrion as Targaryens might be considered too much? But at the same time, if Tyrion is a Targaryen, this would have been created by and decided by GRRM whilst writing GoT. And we know he wouldn’t change something based on what the fans think as that would be poor writing.

  • Darrin Webber
    Darrin Webber 5 years ago

    I do think it is possible, at least in the show, for Tyrion to be a Targaryen. The two dragons that were chained permitted him to get close enough to unchain them. Perhaps they sensed his bloodline. Afor the "Three Heads of The Dragon", I think they are Dany, John Snow, and the Night King

  • Hatts Harbringer
    Hatts Harbringer 2 years ago +2

    Tywin hates Tyrion because he's a dwarf, he's a bad father. It isn't subtle, Tywin basically says so all the time, calling him a monster or an imp. And Tyrion at the trial says, "I've been on trial for being a dwarf my whole life." When Tywin say Tyrion isn't his son it's to be hurtful, he doesn't mean it literally.

  • LadyStarkgaryen
    LadyStarkgaryen 6 years ago +195

    Naaah, I like the idea that Tyrion is Tywin's son and only heir after all.

  • michael buxton
    michael buxton 5 years ago

    The more I watch this video the more I agree with you. I especially agree with your point that Tyrion should stay who he is now. And not become a dragon rider. He's special the way he is.

  • Justin Madsen
    Justin Madsen 8 years ago +36

    I always thought another piece of evidence for the theory was Moqorro and his vision. Tyrion asks him what he sees and the priest says "Dragons. Old and young. True and false. Bright and dark. And you at the center of it all snarling back." Or something to that effect. It also fits with the other Targs. A red dragon could be bright, a black dragon dark or Jon's hair is dark, Dany's light, Tyrion would fit somewhere in the middle of that. Aemon is old, Dany is young. Jon is a true Targ son of Rhaegar, and Aegon is pretending to be a Targ but is the son a Blackfyre woman.

    • Small Pseudonym
      Small Pseudonym 7 years ago

      Ahlamkin, the reason Tywin would be angry is quite clear. Genna told him that of his children, the one he hated acted most like him. Of course that would upset him.
      Accusations are getting quite thin. Nobody is twisting anything. And as far as I'm concerned with the release of a world of ice and fire, GRRM is very strongly setting up that Tyrion is Aerys' son. You don't like it? That's A-ok. But the evidence is right there.

    • soulxxi
      soulxxi 7 years ago +1

      @***** "It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter".
      So since the wedding happens in 263 and Jaime and Cersei are born in 266, when Joanna was not even close to KL nor Aerys, but in CR with her husband, do we start thinking it took her 3 years to hatch her twins? Targaryens are considered dragons, not elephants :P
      There's only one actual fact that "might" make you think Tyrion "could" possibly be Aerys, which is the fact that she was in KL in 272, and Tyrion was born in CR circa 273. And you can't even clutch at it for that long (I suggest reading a World of Ice and Fire. It's got very interesting facts there).

    • Small Pseudonym
      Small Pseudonym 7 years ago

      ... and only went to prove her point. haha. It's a comment on their behaviour.

    • Karlamaría Ramírez Figueroa
      Karlamaría Ramírez Figueroa 7 years ago

      @***** Genna never said they were not Tywin's children. She only depicted Tyrion to be more like Tywin when it came to their wits. Specifically she told Jaime he was all Lannister but would never ever resemble his father the way Tyrion did. She did not call it on their genetics. She called it on their smarts.

    • Small Pseudonym
      Small Pseudonym 8 years ago

      Yes, that's the second part of all of this. Much like Jon, (and assuming he is in fact a Targaryen), will Tyrion's true parentage even matter? I actually think it will, as I have a sneaking suspicion that Tyrion is a Head of the Dragon. That's not to say that he ever learns that fact for sure, though.

  • Vermithrax 77
    Vermithrax 77 5 years ago +1

    I am surprised none of you book readers have mentioned "young Griff" You remember the young lad being raised by Jon Connington who was stolen away by Varys during the siege of Kings Landing. In the book his name is Argon Targaryan.

  • Yumi Chan
    Yumi Chan 2 years ago

    Sadly enough, the Tywin and Tyrion relationship proves one point: negative attention IS a form of attention after all. Tyrion has never been taken note of by his father except for his negative behavior. In a way, it’s become a game of sorts: Tyrion enjoyed to make his father mad by doing the exact things that sent him off the wall - just to be noticed.
    Then he turned it around with Sansa: now his father EXPECTED him to do just what he’d always enjoyed to produce an heir - and he didn’t intent to. Of course he felt sympathy for what Sansa had been going through and didn’t mean to harm/force her, but it also backfired into this negative attention game between father and son. ^_^

  • StandbyRanger
    StandbyRanger 2 years ago +1

    If Aenys were Tyrion's father, that would make Tywin the perfect foil to Ned Stark. Tywin lives to better his family through prestige and cunning, while Ned does the same for his through honor and truth. They both care for a bastard son of the woman he loved (both being related to the respective character by blood, with Tywin loving Joanna romantically, and Ned loving Lyanna platonically). As Alt Shift X stated, both of the mothers died in childbirth. Both refused to divulge the true parentage of the child they are fostering to them, and neither of them championed the bastard children with those who despised them (i.e. Tyrion and Cersei; Jon and Catelyn). As a side note to draw further comparison between Jon and Tyrion, they both had older brothers who loved them despite the thing that drew them so much dislike (being a bastard, and dwarfism respectively).

  • J H
    J H 3 years ago +2

    I always thought that this was possible only because of the varys subplot in books about “little prince” and “griff” which could be an abbreviated griffin sometimes the word for a lion and the emphasis on how they kept little clothes for him in a trunk but implied he wasn’t a boy. As well as the inbreeding and deformity correlation but I don’t know

  • Lucas Napolitano
    Lucas Napolitano 6 years ago +1

    If you read A World of Ice and Fire carefully, you will find out that:
    -By the time of Tyrion's conception, Aerys WAS in Casterly Rock (attending a tournament or something)
    -Aerys tried many times to father more heirs, but most of times Rhaella's turned out to miscarriage deformed children
    So, yeah... I think A+J=T is a highly probable thing
    BUT... maybe this means that Aerys is NOT Danny's father (she would still be a Targaryen anyway, since Rhaella was one herself)

  • Coach Pritch
    Coach Pritch 2 years ago +1

    So well done! You’ve successfully argued both sides...but, you’re probably right, he’s probably NOT a Targaryen...the GRRM quote and what you say about their relationship does it for me...

  • Ben Bershad
    Ben Bershad 6 years ago +3

    It seems like most people who have read the theories about R+L=J agree that it is the most likely explanation for Jon’s parentage, but I think the real shocker will be that Tyrion is the son of The Mad King, Aerys II Targaryen. For years, this theory has been buoyed by a growing collection of facts:
    1) Aerys "took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure"
    2) Tyrion's dragon dreams (usually associated with Targaryens)
    3) The dragon has three heads. Dany = 1, Jon = 2, if Tyrion ≠ 3, then who does? (C’mon, no one really believes Young Griff if really Aegon IV - mummer’s dragon, not in the show, etc.)
    4) While Cersei and Jaime have Lannister hair of "beaten gold", Tyrions was very pale blond, almost white (sound familiar)
    5) Tyrion's eyes are different colors, suggesting mixed blood (unlike his twin siblings with Lannister green eyes, who are the product of a marriage between first cousins)
    6) Tywin's last words "You are no son of mine"
    7) Tywin refuses to make Tyrion the hair to Casterly Rock, his birthright (since Jaime can't inherit as a sworn member of the King's Guard)
    8) The quote that true dragons must be "born of blood", well, guess what, Dany, Jon, AND Tyrion all killed their mothers in childbirth
    But doubters had a strong argument: Aerys "taking liberties" on the wedding night couldn't have led to Tyrion's conception because Cersei and Jaime were born first. Critics said that Aerys wasn't in a position (geographically) to impregnate Joanna, with him ruling in King's Landing and Joanna living at Casterly Rock.
    ENTER NEW EVIDENCE
    In a recently released companion book called "The World of Ice and Fire", which no one seems to have read, GRRM subtly reveals several important facts:
    1) In addition to The Mad King taking liberties with Joanna during the bedding ceremony, after the birth of Cersei and Jaime (and the miscarriage of several of his own would-be children) we have this quote from the book, "This birth only exacerbated the tension between Aerys II Targaryen and his Hand. ‘I appear to have married the wrong woman,’ His Grace was reported to have said...and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel. ‘And bring their mother, too, for it has been too long since I gazed upon that fair face’...”
    2) By AC 270, “Aerys had become aware of the wide-spread belied that he himself was but a hollow figurehead and Tywin Lannister the true master of the Seven Kingdoms. These sentiments greatly angered the king, and His Grace became determined to disprove them and to humble his ‘overmighty servant’ and ‘put him back into his place.’” What better way to do this that get her with child?!?!
    3) Two years later, in 272 AC, Joanna finally shows up again at King's Landing to present the twins before the court. Aerys makes a lewd comment, “The king (very much in his cups) asked her if giving suck to them had ‘ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud’.” Tywin tries to resign after this, but Aerys refused his resignation.
    4) And now, the final thrust against the doubters, after visiting the court in King's Landing in 272 AC, Joanna goes back to Casterly Rock, where she dies giving birth in 273 AC to Tyrion "Lannister". We finally have the evidence that puts Aerys at the scene of the crime and eliminates the largest impediment to the theory.

    • maximinus23
      maximinus23 6 years ago

      +Benjamin Bershad Point 8: OMG yes! I never realised it before but you are right. This is the point that actually made me believe in the whole theory now.

  • Meris
    Meris 6 years ago

    After episode 2 of season 6 where Tyrion walks up to the dragons to release and doesn't get eaten or killed I seriously think this theory might actually be correct. The only other person who was able to do this was Daenerys targaryen

  • Lyndon Tuck
    Lyndon Tuck 7 years ago +120

    These videos are all fantastic, I love the explanations and graphics, but for some reason the sound on them isn't that great. There are little tics in it where it seems to either cut out or pop slightly. Could you sort that out for the next one? All the same, keep up the good work, these videos are great.

    • TheFaceless Guitarist
      TheFaceless Guitarist 7 years ago

      I'am talking to the creator of this video sorry!

    • TheFaceless Guitarist
      TheFaceless Guitarist 7 years ago

      @Lyndon Tuck tyrion is the monkey! in your previous video about the long night. that every region have a hero. and you said a hero with a monkey, maybe tyrion is th emonkey becouse he is dwarf. idk just a theory. tryion call him self a monkey in the previous season of GoT.

    • Lyndon Tuck
      Lyndon Tuck 7 years ago +3

      Thanks for the reply, that's great that you're sorting it out. I look forward to seeing more of your videos!

    • Alt Shift X
      Alt Shift X  7 years ago +16

      @Lyndon Tuck Thanks! Yeah some videos have audio issues, this one's among the worst. It's better in more recent vids, and still improving.

  • B20C0
    B20C0 6 years ago +323

    isn't Tyrion the youngest child of Tywin? So wedding night is definitely out.

    • ZOCCOK
      ZOCCOK Year ago

      @Nicolas Zunker big brain

    • Charlie Parsons
      Charlie Parsons Year ago +1

      Cersei is smart but ruthless which counters her intellect, Jaime is honorable but is blinded by his family (He tries to be honorable but can't refuse his sister and wants to prove himself to his father, until the last few parts of the series) and Tyrion is smart but everyone underestimates him and constantly insults him. Cersei did inherit intellect but her ambition, anger etc destroy the balance between intelligence and patience. Also Ayush Sinha, Tywin doesn't consider and calculate every move this is clear when he sends his son and heir Jaime to lead the forces against Robb but Jaime gets captured and the force is defeated, Overall, The Lannisters (Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei) are all intelligent but are either blinded by pride, ambition or their own family.

    • otto potatum
      otto potatum Year ago

      @Ayush Sinha she had to do that because of the sparrows

    • Balthazar Dupuy d'Angeac
      Balthazar Dupuy d'Angeac 2 years ago +1

      Alt adresses that at the beginning of the video

    • Argos2297
      Argos2297 2 years ago +2

      @Nicolas Zunker but that isn't the incident where Tyrion is conceived. The point is Aerys made it known he wanted to plow Johanna and he made sure Tywin knew it.

  • okaymckay
    okaymckay 6 years ago

    I believe he could still be the Mad King's son. I mean, what if Tywin actually knows or suspects Tyrion is not his son, but indeed sees qualities of his in Tyrion (inherited via Joanna perhaps?) and that's what makes him hate Tyrion even more...?

  • Salvatore Ladu
    Salvatore Ladu 6 years ago

    I really appreciate the way you put all the arguments in line, one after another, with due references for later - in perspective - explanations!
    Very good job mate; also for your ability of not having (apparently) any kind of bias judging all the theories, as it often happens when fans adapt fact to the theories, instead of "checking" theories with facts.
    I am actually wondering how many times you read all the books..
    Anyway, thanks for everything!

  • Aerophina
    Aerophina 5 years ago +4

    Tyrion is truly one of the greatest characters I've ever seen before. I love that guy.

  • Sigrid van Osch
    Sigrid van Osch 2 years ago +1

    It's not strange that Tyrion has a very similar characer to Tywin. Nurture. loterally. He was raised by him, learned his ways via him. He could be a Targaryen. Nurture vs nature it is.

  • ToothlessWizard
    ToothlessWizard 4 years ago +1

    I love the work you guys do. Really makes a lot of my days. Thank you! :)

  • Salma
    Salma 3 years ago +8

    I hope GRRM doesn’t do this because it really would take away from his characters depth, to say everything tywin did was because he wasn’t his son takes away so much from Tywins denial and Tyrion’s pain and arc

    • Pedro Lucas
      Pedro Lucas 11 months ago

      It would've make more sense if Jaime and Cersei were the Mad King's bastard children!

  • Joe Cheatham
    Joe Cheatham 5 years ago +1

    Personally I think tyrion is the son of aerys and instead of Joanna dying during childbirth I think Tyson killed her and didn't kill tyrion because well it would look too suspicious so maybe Tywin knew that Joanna slept with the mad king and killed her out of rage but didn't kill tyrion to keep the families image

  • Red Boy
    Red Boy 7 years ago +27

    I don't think Tywin hating Tyrion for "killing" Joanna is particularly stupid. As mentioned in your video, Joanna was one of the few things, if not the only thing, that made Lord Tywin smile - and that's not easy to do. While Tywin is wise and probably does not literally believe Tyrion did it "intentionally", Tyrion is still a symbol of Joanna's death and a scar for Tywin. I want to believe this theory, and in some ways I do, but even if it's not true, I think Tywin's "hatred" for Tyrion is still both justifiable and understandable.

    • erica bonanno
      erica bonanno 7 years ago +1

      @tommytom Oh, I couldn't say it better :)

  • george leinberger

    Watching this in 2021! I have always loved this theory and even though the show did not resolve this hypothesis, the clues are still there and it is never disproven. I like the way GRRM builds foundations for prophesy but does not bow to them. Well done sir.

  • Skeptic Dank
    Skeptic Dank 5 years ago

    There is a point in one of the free cities Tyrion learns about the 3 kings elected every year and he says "if I had to share a throne with my brother and sister we would be killing each other within a year" or something like that. That could be taken to mean he, or at least whoever is the 3rd head of the dragon, might end up going to war with Jon and Dany after they take westeros

  • badmintongrrl
    badmintongrrl 3 years ago

    He was put on the front line of that battle because the Hill Tribes wanted him there. They had helped Tyrion get through the Eerie and in exchange he was going to give them the Eerie as well as new weapons. Tywin asked them if they’d fight Robb Stark and the Northerners for him and Shaga son of Dolff said that they would if Tyrion would as well, so Tywin agreed

  • trudavy
    trudavy 4 years ago

    Glad you went this direction with this theory. I think it would make for a much wiser tale for Cersei and Jamie to be Targaryen bastards and Tyrion to be the true first born of Tywin.

  • Sara Goodman
    Sara Goodman 7 years ago +11

    Has no one read Jaime's dream sequence when his mother's shade appears to him and basically flat out tells him that he is not Tywin's son? It's pretty clear that Jaime and Cersei are The Mad King's children and Tyrion is Tywin's only true born child. The tragedy is that both men have killed their own fathers (Jaime/Aerys and Tyrion/Tywin) after they were essentially mentally abused by their fathers their entire adult lives.

    • Citizen Justin
      Citizen Justin 7 years ago

      I'm disappointed to hear about Aerys being miles away when Tywin's wife got pregnant with the twins, as I also subscribed to Sara's belief. As we know, Jamie, Cersei and Joffrey all uphold certain famous Targaeryean family traits. Then again, they don't have genetic testing in Westeros so no-one's ever going to know for sure.
      This is part of the fun of it, I reckon. Like the argument about Jon Snow; it would be quite amusing if, after all this conjecture, he turns out to be the son of Ned Stark and a random woman after all.

    • Sara Goodman
      Sara Goodman 7 years ago +3

      Hahaha you had to end with some Patchface shit. Lmao He creeps me out more than any other damn character. He's up to no good.

    • Tina
      Tina 7 years ago

      Aerys *wanted* to take certain liberties with Joanna, but that didn't came to be. He was remarking how he was disappointed that the Right of the First Night had been abolished, where kings and lords could sleep with their subjects on the wedding night before the groom. It humiliated both Tywin and Joanna due to the comment, but Aerys didn't sleep with her.
      Tywin and Joanna married in 263 AC and got Cersei and Jaime in 266. In which time she left Kingslanding shortly after her marriage.
      But Joanna came to Kingslanding in 272 AC, where King Aerys openly lusted after her once again, in the form of lecherous comments and shortly thereafter in 273 AC Tyrion was born.
      That being said, just because Tyrion turns out to be a Targ bastard doesn't mean he'll can eventually lay claim back on Casterly Rock or anything. *We*, as the audience would know that Tyrion is a Targ, but no one else in Westeros has to. He could continue to say that he is a Lannister, for there's no one left who could attest to him *not* being the son of Tywin.
      As for the Lannister line itself... maybe Jaime would give up his sword and cloak still and have some Lannister babies with Brienne. XD Who knows, who knows, oh oh oh.

    • Sara Goodman
      Sara Goodman 7 years ago +1

      I do agree that Joanna's proximity to Aerys is a flaw however it was said that Aerys took certain "liberties" on the first night... Do we know how long it was after Tywin and Joanna were married that she gave birth?? I was under the assumption that she became pregnant immediately following their marriage.
      And I do appreciate the way you present the Aerys/Tyrion theory... However, I think that whoever ends up being Tywins spawn; it's ironic how much time and effort he put into his family legacy only to leave behind a wake of destruction and misery. Unless Tyrion is proven to be his and is able to redeem his family name (doubtful) the Lannisters of the Rock seem to be nearing extinction.
      - I have to excuse myself from grammatical/spelling errors... Been on pain meds for a recent knee surgery. :P

    • Tina
      Tina 7 years ago

      The one flaw being in this theory is that, Joanna wasn't even near Aerys when she supposedly got pregnant and then later gave birth to Jaime and Cersei. However, it must be reflected upon that Joanna WAS at Aerys's court just a shy year before Tyrion was born.
      That aside, Jaime's dream was meant in the most metaphorically way you can interpret it; Jaime does not have Tywin's nature. He isn't like his father, he never was like his father and he will never be like his father. The perfect son Tywin wanted him to be, *a son of mine* Jaime never was. Regardless, that even if Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son, he resembles Tywin in many more ways than even Tywin likes to admit, as by Aunt Genna's account to Jaime himself.
      Imagine the irony that GRRM is building here should this theory prove true; Tywin's real son is nothing like him, but the bastard was the one son he should have had.

  • Adel Helal
    Adel Helal 5 years ago

    "The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about". So well said, so well presented. Hats off to you man.

  • Cass Ash
    Cass Ash 6 years ago

    I get the morbid prose that Tyrion is similar to Tywin but all of those characteristics are psychological and would be picked up from shared environment. Take Jon's actions in the series of killing the men he sentenced, per Ned's philosophy. Ned raised him but isn't his biological father. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a super fan of the series but I love cool theories.

  • Annie Chakraborty
    Annie Chakraborty 4 years ago

    Well I suppose one more thing can count as an evidence here for Tyrion's being a Targaryen, which is that Danny's dragons down in the cellar of Meeren don't burn Tyrion when he greets them. They don't burn him despite being hungry and missing their mother and their good old flying days. They are quite comfortable with him. Even Drogon never hurts him. And he also (probably, I'm not a hundred percent sure) knows all the secret passages of Kings Landing (just a speculation).

  • Timo
    Timo Year ago

    I always thought tyrion was the only true son of Tywin. I started to come to that theory when Tyrion's aunt told Jamie that Tyrion is the most like Tyrion. They also reference the Mad Kings lust for the mother.

  • co94
    co94 Year ago

    If theres one character who has the intelligence, self-awareness, and incentive to investigate his own ancestry, it would be Tyrion. If he never considered the idea he was something other than a Lannister, then the reader probably shouldnt either. Cant imagine even a suspicion of a male targaryen living would have been tolerated. Surely, robert would have heard rumors etc too.

  • Mil A
    Mil A 6 years ago

    I honestly hope Tyrion is not a Targaryen and I'm so glad that you explained exactly why.
    How Tyrion rose up to be the stand-up person he is now from his twisted father-son relationship with Tywin is what makes him the best person in this story. He is every bit as clever and cunning as his father, and every bit as kind as his late mother Joanna---all without inheriting or developing the sadistic nature of his father's/sister's. He is the best combination of the two parents possible, yet Tywin's pathetic mind could not see pass the physical deformation.
    It adds an extraordinary level of complexity into the personality of Tyrion and Tywin's. When ALL of Tyrion's mistreatments from his father were simply from his dwarfism and appearance, they shows how shallow, vain and emotionally weak Tywin truly is; and in comparison, how strong Tyrion is. This is the best and worst of humanity unfolding in a pair of father and son. If GRRM resorts to making Tyrion a Targaryen, it will make all the Targaryens, as a collection, too "good" (assuming R+L=J), and Tyrion's difference with his family less significant and meaningful.
    About Tywin's claim that he hates Tyrion because Tyrion killed Joanna by coming into this world? He is simply covering up for his judgement on Tyrion's appearence. If Joanna died giving birth to a gorgeous son, more beautiful than Jaime, would he still be this angry at the third son? No, he would instead think of him as a living memory of Joanna, Joanna's last gift to him.

  • Kuudere-Kun
    Kuudere-Kun 3 months ago +1

    "All Dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes" Tyrion actually being a Bastard would be too much of a vindication of that bigotry.
    However is Aryes had his eye of Joahnna from the start, what its actually the Twins he fathered? They after all have inherited a key Targaryen trait.

  • Connor McCarthy
    Connor McCarthy Year ago +1

    My man, your work is incredible and I love your analysis of Game of Thrones; just getting into your library of content now on my second rewatch of this series. This is a really compelling theory, so I thought I'd add that Tyrion (Targaryen) is one of the only characters seen soothing a dragon, John being the only other character I can think of who is not a clearly declared Targaryen . 😎👍 This theory is 🔥.

  • Norm alice
    Norm alice 6 years ago +61

    there is one very big hint in favor of this theory, and it exists outside the books. It was in a GRRM interview, in which he claimed he had a big 'Tyrion' problem when writing the books, but then later came up with the perfect solution. I don't recall where I saw the interviews, and thus don't recall where the line is between what was actually said and what I extrapolated, but this suggests that writing Tyrion was a problem for writing a convincing story and the solution was to make Tyrion a dwarf. Let's think of what would be different if he wasn't a dwarf, and what it explains if he is.
    First, we know that Tywin has a lot of pride. He's not likely to admit when someone has gotten the best of him (i.e. by sleeping with his wife). If Tyrion was, indeed, the bastard child of the king, Tywin would not be likely to kill him off as that would be an admission of someone having had the best of him. However, in raising this child that wasn't his, he still would have treated him poorly. But from a writing point of view, it would be very difficult to write this without giving it away unless there was some other thing about Tyrion towards which Tywin could direct his loathing - i.e. being a dwarf.
    As such, when GRRM said that making Tyrion a dwarf was a solution to a big writing problem, I think the problem was how to explain Tyrion's relationship with Tywin, without immediately suggesting that they aren't related by having unexplained hostility between them. Writing Tyrion as a dwarf offers explanation to that hostility, thus masking the possibility of Tyrion being a bastard son of the king, thus (from the perspective of GRRM) making it much easier to write their shaky relationship. There doesn't seem to be any other point to making Tyrion a dwarf that couldn't have been written just as easily for a non-dwarf.

  • WafiKhanjerMusic
    WafiKhanjerMusic 5 years ago +1

    Another thing is that later on in season 6.. the Dragons didnt do shit to Tyrion when he went to set them free, true he was giving something so that/s probably why they didnt anything but its important to mention...
    who knows maybe in season 7 we could get a scene with Dragons and Jon and if the dragons dont do anything to him then it's would be promising because we know Jon is half Targaryen...

  • Simran Gill
    Simran Gill 6 years ago

    If Tywin is indeed a Targaryen, and in another video you linked Jon Snow (supposedly Targaryen because of R+l=J) and Dany to being Azhor Ahai, can Tyrion also be Azor Ahai and thus the third head of the dragon? In the recent GoT EPISODE, we know that the dragons do not hurt him too

  • angeljenn8469
    angeljenn8469 5 years ago

    I’m thinking he is almost definitely a Targaryen because he went into where the two dragons were chained alone and not only set them free but he touched them and lived. Um I haven’t seen anyone other than John and Dani touch them and live and they are for sure Targaryen. I’m rooting for him being one of the three cause he is the best character in the damn show!!!

  • Joel Warzecha
    Joel Warzecha 4 years ago

    They may go this route in the show, but it is my firm belief that he’s absolutely Tywin’s son. But in the books, I’m convinced Cersei and Jamie are the mad king’s bastards. I would honestly be surprised if that isn’t the case

  • Aila
    Aila 3 years ago

    I hope that they do include Tyrion in the three dragons thing, but not because he’s a targeryan but because he’s the most clever character in the series. Clever characters are so much more interesting than prophecies

  • Paweł Czop
    Paweł Czop 6 years ago +1

    This theory has a major flaw - it indicates that Tyrion was concieved on the wedding night of Joanna and Tywin. Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion. But before this, she gave birth to Jaime and Cersei who were born several years before Tyrion. Therefore, Tywin's and Joanna's wedding, according to this theory had to happen after Joanna gave birth to Jaime and Cersei. Therefore, this theory would indicate either that both Cersei and Jaime are Tywins bastards or they are not older that Tyrion or they are not children of Tywin and Joanna . I understand it would be interesting plot twist for Tyrion to occur as a son of a mad king, but it just won't do.

  • TheWhatsdoinglad
    TheWhatsdoinglad 2 years ago +29

    " Promise me Tywin situation " HAHAHAHAHA
    That gave me a really good laugh!

  • Deathrider
    Deathrider 7 years ago +5

    I've never subscribed to the "Tyrion Targaryen" theory. As you've pointed out, there just isn't enough support for it in the books, and the timelines don't quite fit. However, I believe it's entirely possible that Jaime and Cersei are the children of the Mad King. There is a great deal of material that suggests this, and it would make for an interesting duality between Jaime and Tyrion, each being complicit in the death of his own father.

  • Night Mahar
    Night Mahar Year ago

    When Tyrion frees the dragons in the HBO version I had the same inkling. The only other we see touch the dragons without retribution is Jon Snow. Perhaps Martin will explore this in the books.

  • Karina Masso
    Karina Masso 2 years ago

    There is another reason why I believe Tyrion is Tywin's son: I don't think Joanna would have wanted to have him if she thought there was a possibility he was Aerys' son.
    For what we know about Joanna, she most likely was strong, practical and smart (she seems to have been Tywin's best advisor). So if she was raped by Aerys she didn't tell Tywin, surely she didn't want a conflict between the Lannisters and the crown, so why would she risk having a baby that could look like Aerys? And why keep her rapist's child anyway?
    Even if she was not raped but had an affair whit Aerys (that seems unlikely, because it seems she did love Tywin and her family, and because Aerys was disgusting at this point) why risk a conflict by having a child that could have Targaryen traits?
    In any scenario, I don't think she would have wanted to put her family in danger with a war (if she was raped) or have Tywin kick her out of Casterly Rock and not see her other children again (if she had an affair).

  • Zeusselll
    Zeusselll 3 years ago

    Don't know if someone already said this, but wouldn't it also fit GRRM's requirement for conflict in the human heart if he WAS a Targaryen? Think about it, Tyrion represents a combination for his love of Joanna and his hatred for Aerys. So Tywin keeps him around whilst chastising him. Tyrion has been heir to Casterly Rock for ~20 years now and politically, he hasn't done anything. Then, he's the master of coin, and then hand of the king, he even demands his birthright. This is Tyrion seizing power. It might have been bad enough for Tywin to have to look after the king's bastard, but now he starts to remind him even more of Aerys. Maybe this was Tywin's boiling point, or maybe he was afraid of another mad ruler. Maybe he wanted him dead for the good of his family, or even the realm.

  • 3percentmilk
    3percentmilk 21 day ago

    I've always felt that each of Tywin's children represented a different aspect of Tywin himself: Cersei is his ambition and his ruthless pursuit of it, Jaime is his physical prowess and vanity, and Tyrion represents his mastery with strategy and cunning. Knowing that G.R.R.M. is big on symbolism, I would be really surprised if there was a secret lineage twist. It also explains why the Lannisters can't maintain stable power after Tywin's death; they are each a piece of a greater whole, but they refuse to work together. But I'm no SOIAF lore master, so idk 🤷‍♀️

  • Trent B
    Trent B 7 years ago +293

    Tyrion does have one thing in common with the two other Targaryens (assuming R+L=J is correct), which is that all of their mothers died giving birth to them. Not proof at all that Tyrion is a Targaryen, but certainly a connection.

    • Sam Lewis
      Sam Lewis 4 years ago

      Tre B
      Could pull them together in a strong alliance to defeat Cersei when it comes to it. After Dany stops listening to Tyrion in favour of Jon that connection could pull them together

    • Yourztrulydaboy
      Yourztrulydaboy 5 years ago +1

      Tre B he literally says that in this video you're watching...

    • Coby Barron
      Coby Barron 6 years ago +9

      He said that in the video

    • kronos444
      kronos444 7 years ago +7

      @Madalin Grama Indeed, she is resistant but not immune. George himself has said so.
      web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/
      "The thing with Dany and the dragons, that was just a one-time magical event, very special and unique. The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more heat than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that, but that doesn't mean they're totally immune to fire, no. Dragons, on the other hand, are pretty much immune to fire."
      Yes, I know they wrote "Targaryens" wrong but what's important is what he said.

    • Goomba Pizza
      Goomba Pizza 7 years ago +1

      @kronos444 That may be so, but on the show there was another occasion or two during Season 1 where she was shown to be heat/fire-resistant.

  • Scott Call
    Scott Call Year ago

    There was no mention of Tyrion being able to approach and remove the collars of the dragons in the basement. Not many people would have survived that. The dragons seem to know who is Targaryen, as they do with Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen.

  • tj duval
    tj duval 6 years ago +2

    Even if he ends up not being Tywins son or not I don't think it takes away from their messed up relationship and makes more sense of why he hated Tyrion so much.
    Either way Tyrion didn't know and Tywin was the only father he had ever known so him shooting Tywin is still tells a lot about Tyrion.
    great video

  • MissPopuri
    MissPopuri 5 years ago

    The pale blond description of Tyrion's hair could come from the ancient roots for pale that share a root with the word "fallow" (of a light-yellowish brown color). Fallow is what you would have your fields do in medieval times to restore nutrients into the soil. The Lannister clan need an heir who has lain fallow to be able to produce something truly great.

  • James Turner
    James Turner 6 years ago +2

    I love your theory on this, But 2 years on and with Tyrion now with the Dragon queen and has talked to the Dragons face to face (something know one else has done) without getting killed, and telling his story of dragon dreams as a kid. I wonder if your mind has been changed? This explanation deserves a second look I think. I am convinced Tyrion is the 3rd dragon rider.

  • salamut2202
    salamut2202 7 years ago +585

    I hope he isn't. I feel it cheapens the relationship between Tyrion and Tywin.
    On the "you're no son of mine" thing, I think that's more an insult when he's disappointed. He says the same thing to Jamie afterall.
    As for the hair colour, didn't Tommen also have very pale blonde hair?

    • Michonne Walker
      Michonne Walker 3 years ago

      He not a Targaryen and he never will be

    • Kranky. K!
      Kranky. K! 3 years ago +1

      Well all if them have Targaryons ancestory. Robert grandmother and Lannisters too. So it's possible that Valaryion blood lives on. Some seeds being pure hence the SEED IS STRONG.

    • Tracy Whitt
      Tracy Whitt 3 years ago

      All of Cersei kids are Jamie’s

    • Jake
      Jake 3 years ago

      @Herr Schmidt lmfao

    • Micky Strong
      Micky Strong 4 years ago

      salamut2202 how does it cheapen it

  • Chandler Ding
    Chandler Ding 3 years ago

    It’s one thing I don’t think will ever be answered in the books. I think it is intentionally ambiguous. Tyrion is obviously going to be a major player at the end of all this. I think he will be the last Lannister, and the family line will be known as dwarf. It will be a sign of the families nobility in future generations. As an eternal smite to Tywin!

  • it's ok
    it's ok 2 years ago

    Even though I have to aggree that it would lessen some of the humane tragedy of Tyrion being hated by his own father .. didn't Oberyn Martell tell Tyrion about these rumours that Tyrion was born with a reptile tail that his father supposedly cut off? Well, on the other hand, those were only rumours.

  • DoGlowy
    DoGlowy 6 years ago +3

    Thank you! I've always loved the complexity of Tyrion/Tywin's relationship and storyline. I hate the T=T theory because it doesn't add anything to the story IMO.